Introduction

Here is the Crescendo Music Education Podcast – Episode 133.

This podcast is being recorded on the lands of the Turrbal people. I acknowledge them as the traditional owners of the land and pay my respects to elder’s past, present and emerging. They were the first music makers on this land.

About ‘Read the Episode’: Sometimes, we would rather skim visually than listen to a podcast! That’s a great way to learn too!
The transcript of episode 133 of The Crescendo Music Education Podcast is below.

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Debbie O’Shea 

I would like to welcome to the Crescendo Music Education Podcast Elliot Rentoul.  How are you Elliot?

Elliot Rentoul 

Yeah, great thank you Debbie. How are you?

Elliot’s Bio

Debbie O’Shea 

Fabulous. Now Elliot is here as my guest for Real Teachers, Real Stories. I’m very interested to hear some of his stories, but I’m going to start with just a brief bio, so that you, my lovely listeners, can just have a quick idea of his background. So here we go. Elliot Rentoul is a Brisbane based composer, educator and choral specialist. He is passionate about inclusive music education that sparks curiosity and fosters community. That’s a great statement that one.

There’s so much I want to talk about in that, but I better keep going. As an early career music specialist with several Kodály levels under his belt Elliot is a self professed solfa nerd, yay hands up solfa nerds of the world, who seeks to inspire creativity and curiosity through their aural vocal pedagogical approach. They incorporate rich listening tasks to encourage students to think critically, listen musically and to situate music learning within other learning across the curriculum. Alongside their leadership of the Brisbane Pride Choir, which has grown to over 70 members, that’s a big choir. Wow.

Elliot sings with the Brisbane Chamber Choir and serves on the Australian National Choral Association, which we call ANCA, Queensland and Northern Territory chapters committee. Wow. And do you know what? One of the things I’m very pleased about having you here is to be chatting to someone who is a little more early career than myself and some of my guests. It’s really important that we hear from people at all stages of their journey. So that’s your brief bio. So anything you want to add to that, or dig into anything.

Elliot Rentoul 

Oh, there’s so much we could dig into, but I think let’s get into the questions.

Debbie O’Shea 

Okay, let’s do that. Let’s do that. I just want to ask about all sorts of things, but they should come up as we go. Alright, so here we go.  How many years have you been teaching Elliot?

Elliot Rentoul 

I just finished my fourth year and only just last week I got my full registration. So that was really exciting, because I’ve been a part timer, so slowly accruing the days, but Yeah, finally made it. So I was pretty happy about that.

Debbie O’Shea 

Congratulations, that’s worth a celebration. That is, yes. So as a teacher at the moment, how would you define success?

Elliot’s Definition of Success

Elliot Rentoul 

Well, that is such a big question. When I first read it, I was thinking, I don’t even know if I even think of it as success, but there are two things that are really important to me. And the first one is all about the joy of music. I think that’s the thing that students will bring with them for the rest of their lives. And so when a student’s enjoying my subject, is feeling that joy of music, or even those that feel like they’re not going to like music go, Okay, this room or this teacher, is a space where I can feel safe and I can create and play with sound, like even that feels like success to me.

And then on the other side, there’s also that thing about curiosity that I talked about and thinking and listening like a musician. So I’m looking for my students to think like musicians and if I can get to the point where they’re doing that, that’s so exciting for me.

Debbie O’Shea 

Oh that’s a great summary, because I think that’s what we’re all trying to do, whether we define it that way, is getting them to think like musicians. I think that’s amazing because you could even say something like Well, no one threw a chair at me today, that’s success. No one ran out of the room screaming, that’s success. I didn’t cry today, that’s success.

Elliot Rentoul 

It does feel like that sometimes.

Debbie O’Shea 

Oh, there are days like that and if anybody says they don’t have days like that, oh, well, they’re lying. That’s what I’ve decided. But I love that, the joy and the feeling of safety and belonging and then thinking like a musician, I think they’re fabulous. That’s a great answer. I think we’d all agree with that one. Now, what would you say might be the most creative lesson or lesson segment you’ve ever taught and what made it special? So one of those things that stands out in your mind?

Elliot Rentoul 

Well, I’m quite creative, I’ve got a background as a composer and I’m really passionate about thinking curiously and thinking like a musician. So one of the things I did was kind of starting with C2C idea and then spiraling off from there. I was thinking about found sounds in lower primary and one day I took the kids around the school on a sound walk and we were just kind of going around trying to find different things that made sound and talking about all the different contrasts. Oh, there’s metal bars or the concrete doesn’t really make much of a sound but the wood does and the plastic bins do.

And we kind of went from there to I brought some things around from home for another lesson and then by their assessment, they were drawing and choosing junk percussion to use in an ostinato. And it’s just sort of tied all these little bits and pieces together, but it had this kind of play and creative element to it, which was really fun. And they felt like they had so much choice in what kind of sound they were creating.

But we were working with ta and titi or whatever it was and creating ostinato and getting those rhythmic concepts really firm in their minds as well. So there was all that in the background. But they weren’t conscious of how much of that was there. Yeah, I love giving them opportunities to be really creative and to play as well at that young age.

Debbie O’Shea 

I love that. So although you are practicing concepts that need to be practiced and known for them to think like musicians, but you’re giving them appropriate agency and choice. I love that and that all comes back to you saying that you’re passionate about being inclusive, because that’s including everybody, isn’t it?

Elliot Rentoul 

Yeah.

Debbie O’Shea 

Yeah. That’s a great activity. I love that, because how many times have we created an ostinato, but just by adding that dimension, that’s a wonderful idea. I think that’s great. Thank you. Now, what’s one piece of music every student should experience? That’s a huge question, isn’t it?

Elliot’s One Piece

Elliot Rentoul 

I found it really tricky because I guess in the spirit of inclusion I’m always trying to have a balance of lots of different types of music from lots of different sources. But I was thinking about, for me, I had a piece that I got taught in primary school that I now teach and that art music piece is In The Hall of the Mountain King and I know it’s a classic, but I just every time I teach it to students they love it and it reminds me of my first experience with it as well.

And the drama of those huge tempo and dynamic changes and showing them how that music’s telling the story even before films, really has resonated with my upper primary students. I also like to juxtapose it with The Morning Movement as well. And a lot of them, they get excited because some of them are learning it in instrumental music.

So they go, Oh, I know how to play that. So, yeah, that’s probably the one for me that in primary school  I love to bring out that piece because I feel like it’s a lot of fun and there’s so many different things we can be teaching alongside it as well and it’s a really rich source to kind of pull things from.

Debbie O’Shea 

Yes, I would agree with that. I think that both of those movements are staples within my program. And in upper primary, you can even do the so mi re do re mi, it’s so versatile. And little kids titi titi titi ta, it’s gold isn’t it? It’s so obvious. I love it. Alright, now I know a little about where you have been working and you wouldn’t call it a really easy school, like we’re going to say the right thing and be politically correct.

But I gather that it’s not been a very easy classroom management journey for you, which all of us can sympathise with, to various extents. But I was wondering what you see as the biggest challenge that you face as a music teacher and how you address it. And I’m wondering whether it is about classroom management, when handling some high need students, or is it something else that you felt was a bigger challenge?

Classroom Management with Elliot

Elliot Rentoul 

It’s really interesting. When I answered this question, I never once thought of the kids or like the challenges that I have managing them in a classroom environment, it was always about the support that we’re getting from the school and from our colleagues and how they view our subject. And I think for anyone teaching music, they’ve probably experienced this, the more I’ve been able to connect with my colleagues and with my supervisors and if they understand the importance of our subject and that we too need support, in curriculum, but also in inclusion and making sure that if a class or a student needs a teacher aid, that you have that and things like that. If we don’t have that, it makes it really hard to do our jobs.

Whether it’s you’re missing a bunch of lessons because there was athletics carnival and then there was this and then there was that and then it’s like, Well, how am I supposed to properly teach and assess these kids, they’ve missed three or four lessons. I think for any teacher if you explain it like that, it’s really easy to understand that it makes it really difficult, sometimes impossible, to do our jobs properly.

So my solution to that has been trying to think about connecting with others, so even just other music teachers at my school, I wish, other teachers at my school who are on board and having them help me advocate for the subject. Talking with other music teachers and finding out what they’ve done has been really helpful. Trying to be really proactive and advocate with administration for what we need, which I found hard at the beginning, I’ve gone Oh, I don’t know if I can ask for this. And then later on gone no I should have said Hey, that’s not fair, I need this too. And then of course, there’s the work that we can do through the union and things like that, on a larger scale.

Debbie O’Shea 

Yes, that’s interesting because I had sort of thought, because I know that you have some of those challenges within your classes, I thought that might have been it, but you know, you’re absolutely right that even with challenging students and classes, if you get the support that you need, the resources that you need and the time that you need, it’s going to be easier isn’t it? And we do need to stand up for ourselves and go Hold on, hold on, there’s a teacher aid that helps this class all the time but they don’t come to my lesson. I know I’m good, but really I’m not that good.

I would like some help too, please. So yeah, you do have to be brave and ask. And ask the right way of course, and explain. And the more you advocate for your subject and explain to others the importance of what you do, the better it is. So yeah, that’s interesting, as a beginning teacher, an early career teacher, that you find that your biggest challenge? Because I’d say most of us would put that up there as one of the biggest challenges. Have you ever had a teaching moment that completely changed the way you think about music education?

Elliot’s Changing Teaching Moment

Elliot Rentoul 

For me, it wasn’t one single moment but kind of a collection of things that happened that helped me look at what I do in a slightly different light and that was when I spoke about earlier, about those kids that they go to music and they know that they don’t like it and there’s also those kids that are really quiet and you really not getting anything back, you really don’t know what’s going on in their heads and it’s really interesting. Like, once I’ve started to teach those kids for a long enough time and developed enough of a relationship, at some point, they might say something, or sometimes it’s been a little card that they wrote, or the way that they express themselves at the end of the lesson.

And it made me realise that they were actually really connecting with what we were doing in class and have been really switched on, just in their own kind of quiet, reserved way. And that’s always been really exciting for me and made me realise that just because a students not giving or expressing everything in that moment that I’m teaching something, doesn’t mean it’s not getting through to them and that they’re not finding it really powerful and meaningful. I guess it made me realise we are constantly making judgments as we teach.

How the lesson’s going? Especially as an early career teacher, I’m like, how is this lesson going? What should I change? I’m being very reflective. But I think you can’t know everything at that moment in time and then later on, it might be the end of the term, the end of the year, that quiet student finally speaks up and you go, Wow, they were on this journey the whole time. And that’s, yeah, it’s really powerful.

But also, I didn’t expect that until it happened the first few times and it was really exciting. And also just told me I was completely wrong. I can’t really know which students are connecting with the subject or which are like for certain, because they all have different ways of expressing themselves and they might be at different stages of kind of being open and confident in a classroom like our music classroom.

Debbie O’Shea 

That has great implications when you think about assessment too, doesn’t it. Like how assessment is just a point in time and it’s just a way you happen to be assessing and that doesn’t mean that the child who has not sung or improvised or created at that point. Does that mean they haven’t learnt? And are they really worth a D? So it’s a reminder all round as we’re making judgements. But I think we’ve also got to have faith that what we’re doing is reaching kids on some level, somehow.

Elliot Rentoul 

Yes, I think I’m starting to get there with that confidence in myself and in the practice that is taught to me from lots of other experienced music teachers and go, Hey, they know what they’re doing. We’re a community, learning together and we’ve been working on this for a long time.

Debbie O’Shea 

Keep going and keep doing it in different ways and they’ll get something out of it. Hopefully they’ll get what you need them to get out of it, right? Yes, that’s a really good point. Okay, now we’re up to funny, a funniest or unexpected, if it’s not hilarious. I’ll tell you what when I look back, I just wish I could walk around. I mean, I guess it’s close.

I’ve got a phone, haven’t I? I wish I had jotted down every funny thing that a kid said to me, because it would be a best seller now, like at the  opposite end of my career to you. If I had a document with every funny thing that happened it would be so good, because they happen all the time, all these little funny things. But is there anything that has stuck out in your mind that’s happened during your lessons that was funny or unexpected?

Elliot’s Unexpected Moments

Elliot Rentoul 

Yeah, I really struggled. I was trying to think of a specific example of something funny. And those things, they say something but I couldn’t think of anything specific. That was one of those funny things they say, but one of the funny things that they did, I could remember. So some of the kids at my last school are quite creative. I mean, lots of kids are creative and they had a multi age class where I tried to give them a bit of creative leeway and then in the groups, they’d be really creative and come up with performance ideas. It was really exciting, but also I learnt that creativity sometimes needs limitations and so I let the upper primary students pretty much have free reign of instruments for a group performance project.

I would kind of consult with them and I had one of the students who was learning drum kit at home and he asked me if he could do djembe. And I was like, Yeah, that’s fine. I didn’t realise though, that he decided to make a drum kit out of djembes. So he grabbed like, three or four or five djembes of different sizes and mallets and he played them like it was a drum kit and it actually sounded quite good but it’s entirely not how you’re supposed to use djembes. But he’d practiced everything at home, so I just thought, okay, I’ll just let it be for now and then for next time, I’ll say, Hey, let’s use them how we learn in class and try this way.

But yeah, it was just one of those moments where it was really creative outside of the box of what I was expecting at all. It kind of worked, but it was also a little bit ridiculous, because imagine this kid with these sticks and five djembes. It was truly something. But yeah, that was just a moment that taught me as well, I was like, Okay, some kind of parameters around what we’re doing with the instruments is important.

Debbie O’Shea 

Good, but at least he didn’t damage them. That’s good.

Elliot Rentoul 

No, no, they were fine.

Debbie O’Shea 

He didn’t use pencils. I love it. I love the way kids’ minds work. Oh, I really do. It just gives me joy every day. I love it. Okay? Now, teaching tool, taking the word tool very loosely.

Elliot Rentoul 

Good, that’s what I did.

Debbie O’Shea 

Good, good. What’s your favorite tool?

Elliot’s Favorite Tool

Elliot Rentoul 

I’ve already said that I love solfa. So I went to the other thing that I really love, which is French time names. When I first arrived at my last school, a lot of the kids didn’t know rhythms very well, so I just went right in with French time names and in the repertoire that we were learning. And just now after being there for three years, the kids, if I’d say titi, they can say oh yeah two even sounds on a beat, they know and it’s just been really nice having that clarity.

And then whenever they ask, why do we say these weird things? And then I say, there’s that whole Okay, well, the syllables match the sounds. And it’s really easy and then I can say, Hey in instrumental music, how you learn that this is a quaver? If we say this is two quavers every time we see that, it’s going to be really messy. But yeah, so that’s the one I chose, because I think without it I don’t know how I would go about teaching these rhythms in primary. It makes our job so much easier, and we can constantly practice.

Debbie O’Shea 

I could not agree more. And I think the basic teaching tools, as far as I’m concerned, would be time names, solfa, you need those tools. That’s what Zoltán Kodály said. He just advocated the use of these as tools. Like, they’re not an end product, they’re a tool. But when I first came across them as an adult at university, oh no, it wasn’t University then it was college, teacher’s college. Like, to me, it was mind blowing.

I thought it actually led me to understand music in a way I hadn’t before because I’d never been exposed to solfa and rhythm names and I thought, this is the most powerful tool I can actually sight sing now, like I couldn’t before. I could play piano and someone would put music in front of me and I could translate that black dot to the keyboard, but I couldn’t necessarily sing it or understand what it was before I did that. So I think the fact that you picked rhythm names as a favourite teaching tool is fabulous. Oh, I’m so glad you’re in the profession Elliot.

Elliot Rentoul 

Thank you.

Debbie O’Shea 

Now you don’t have to think back too far for this one, what advice would you give to a graduate you? Perhaps something that you do now that you wish you had done earlier, or what difference you’d make in your approach to what you do?

Elliot Rentoul 

I had like a small list of ideas, but the first thing that came to mind was, well, I don’t know how many other people are in this boat, but I originally trained as a secondary music teacher and I ended up in primary by accident. And I tried to learn as much as I could. I’ve done my first primary level for Kodály but as I was going I realised I didn’t know very well developmentally where the kids were at from Prep to Six and they change so much in that short space of time.

And so I learnt that I really needed to know that and I’ve tried to kind of fill in as much as I could with PD, but also get to know the kids really well, talk to the teachers, those kind of things, because even things like, what stage are the kids able to read and write and understand these questions that you’re asking? Or, like, in a say musicology kind of context. Or if I’m putting things up on a PowerPoint can they read and understand it?

Do I need to make it bigger, like sort of simple things like that I found really helpful going to colleagues and also, particularly because different kids, different schools, different classes, it is different. But yeah, I think that I sort of wished I knew a little bit more about it because I think we can get really fixed on how to teach music, or at least I did, because I love music, I’m a bit passionate about it. But I also I’m really passionate about the kids and I need to learn how they tick and how things work for them. And that’s why I think I mentioned in my bio, across the curriculum as well.

Connecting with what else they’re doing at school. What are they doing in English? Like they get so excited when we start talking about rhyming and they’re like, we’re learning that in English. And whenever we do a song and we see a rhyme, we always point it out, because it’s so much fun and it’s connecting across to what they’re doing in English. And it makes them feel like, Hey, we know this. We might not know this song, but we know how rhyming works. So, yeah, that’s the main one I thought of.

Elliot Rentoul 

The second thing kind of relates to what we were saying earlier, asking for help when you need it. And if at first you don’t get help, be persistent or maybe find another way to ask. Because I think when I first started, I was like, Oh, I don’t want to show everyone that I don’t quite know what I’m doing. Or I don’t want to be seen as needing help, I can do this myself, but then realising later, everyone’s struggling with different things and we can work as a team and it’s so much better as teachers to work as a team.

The minute I started going Hey to their class teacher, I’m having a lot of trouble with this kid, what do you think I should do? And then we’ll brainstorm a whole list of things together. Or they’ll be like, Oh, I’ll talk to the parents for you, like straight away and it’s been dealt with. But the minute I asked for help, it was just a completely different situation, so much less stressful.

Debbie O’Shea 

I love that, ask for help and I think it is particularly hard when you’re new. It’s actually easier when you’re not new, when you’re very experienced. You just don’t even hesitate, you just go up to their class teacher and go, What on earth do you do when John kicks off, how do you handle it? It’s absolutely okay to say you don’t know it all, but when you first start, that’s tricky, isn’t it, because you don’t want to seem too helpless. But I love that.

I love those two pieces of advice, to understand the children developmentally more and to ask for help more. I think they’re fabulous and I do think that it’s a good reminder that we are teaching children. We’re not actually teaching music. We’re teaching children. We happen to be teaching a subject we love and we’re passionate about and we know it is a great advantage for them to have music education.

But they’re children and to me instrumental teachers come to mind, when you’re teaching the instrument or are you teaching the child to play that instrument? And I think that slight difference is very powerful. Yeah. Anyway, sorry, I went off on a tangent. Alright, our last official question before the rapid fire ones. Elliot, what do you wish more people understood about being a music teacher?

Elliot Rentoul 

Well, I was like, where to start? So my first line might be, again I said music is a highly specialised subject, but it’s also not rocket science. And the reason that I started with that is I think sometimes we don’t get treated like other teachers and we don’t get the same planning time or parent teacher interviews, or lesson time to teach and we also get seen as like the person who is in charge of the whole school’s music culture.

Thinking about that, I think it’s not fair on us to do that on our own, like a culture means that it’s not just us and it needs everyone on board and it needs even people who feel like, oh, I don’t know that much about music. They can still be part of building a musical culture and they can still support us. I heard this lovely story and I kind of think of it when I think about school music culture, class teachers that would have their students practice recorder once a day in the morning.

Can you imagine if every teacher supported music like that, like how students would excel and stay connected to music, because they would be in touch with it every day, like their teacher wouldn’t need to know exactly how to teach them and what to do. Just giving them the opportunity to practice, saying, Hey, we value this. So I guess where I was thinking was, I think sometimes they’re like Oh, that music, that’s your business over there and we kind of get in our little silo.

And I think that’s not really helpful to us or to the rest of the school. I think it’s much better if we can work as a community. And even I might go, Hey, I don’t really know what you’re doing in Year Three English either, but let’s kind of share what we’re doing and listen to each other and support each other and ultimately it’ll help the students in their learning.

Debbie O’Shea 

Absolutely, when I first started teaching primary school music lessons were not non-contact time. Classroom teachers had no non-contact time in primary school. They were on full time and the teachers were expected to sit in and perhaps participate in our lessons and do daily follow up. That was expected when I first started teaching in Queensland state schools.

So the non-contact time, which of course was very much needed, because high school teachers always had their spares, so obviously we needed it, but it was a bit of a double edged sword for music education because it meant our jobs sort of were safe. I know we’re fighting the fight now, but our jobs were sort of saved because we were needed to provide the non-contact but the classroom teachers then had no idea of what we were doing and it really was different when they were able to see what we did and how we did it and they would take a game or an activity and they would do it in their classroom or use them as brain breaks.

Not all of them of course, there were some that would sit and do their marking at the back and wouldn’t care what you did, but there were those that took what you did and took little bits to their classroom and it was just so powerful those teachers that did that. So I think that’s such a good thing, to point out that if the classroom teachers understood better about our job and what we did, I’m sure they would do a lot more of music in their classroom to help build their culture, the whole school culture. Yeah, great answer. Thank you.

Elliot, this is good. Alright. It has been amazing talking to you and thank you for giving up your time, I’m sure the listeners have really enjoyed hearing your insights. We’re going to finish with the fun rapid fire questions. Was there anything else you wanted to say before we do the rapid fire questions?

Rapid-Fire Questions

Elliot Rentoul 

No, I’m just getting geared up for rapid fire.

Debbie O’Shea 

Okay. Here we go. What’s the most underrated instrument?

Elliot Rentoul 

The recorder.

Debbie O’Shea 

I just have a feeling that several of my guests will say that, but we’ll wait and see. We’ll wait and see. Okay, who’s your musical hero and how have they influenced you?

Elliot Rentoul 

Well, I’m going to get a bit emotional here. My high school music teacher and my high school choir conductor are my musical heroes and they taught me to listen and think like a musician.

Debbie O’Shea 

Oh, would you like to name them?

Elliot Rentoul 

Sure, Andrew Pennay and Paul Holley. Yeah I was pretty lucky.

Debbie O’Shea 

No wonder, no wonder you’re a good musician having those two. Oh, my goodness, I wish I was taught by people like that. And yes, I love those two as well. Okay, sorry. Rapid fire. Be quiet Debbie. Okay, what’s a song or piece of music that you wish you’d written?

Elliot Rentoul 

I picked Gorecki’s Symphony of Sorrows, specifically movement two for the nerds out there. Andrew Pennay taught us this in Year 12 High School and it’s got a canon in Aeolian mode and then each part starts two beats after on a different part of the mode. And it’s just really clever, it works, but also, how! I tried to recreate something like it when I was studying but yeah, I could never reach that level of genius.

Debbie O’Shea 

Oh my goodness. Well we’ll have to listen to that. I have no idea. Shows how clever Andrew is. Oh, I want to listen to that now. Thank you. If you could perform a duet with any musician living or dead, who would it be?

Elliot Rentoul 

So in chamber choir we’ve recently performed the Christmas Oratorio and St John Passion the year before. So. I picked JS Bach because I would really like to see how he would harmonise what I was doing and also I can’t play piano very well, so he could do the accompanying and I would just sing along and she’ll be right.

Debbie O’Shea 

Oh, I love it. And if music teachers had a theme song, what do you think it should be?

Elliot Rentoul 

I picked It’s Oh So Quiet by Bjork, it sums up for me the feeling before the students enter the room and then the fun and the madness begins.

Debbie O’Shea 

Oh I love it. I love it. Thank you so much. Elliot, it’s been a delight. I didn’t dig into your composition side. We’ll have to do that another time. Thank you so much for spending time with us.

Elliot Rentoul 

You’re welcome. It’s been a pleasure.

Debbie O’Shea 

Bye.

Elliot Rentoul 

See you.

Sign-Off

Thank you for joining me for this podcast. Don’t forget, you’ll find the show notes and transcript and all sorts of information on crescendo.com.au. If you’ve enjoyed the podcast or found it valuable, you might like to rate it on your podcast player and leave a review. I’d really appreciate it if you did. All I can be as the best version of me. All you can do is be the best you. Until next time, bye.

Just for Laughs

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Why is tennis such a loud sport? Because players always raise a racket.

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📜 Crescendo Music Education Podcast | Episode 133

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