Leading with Influence – Joel Copeland (Part 2) | 154

Welcome back to The Crescendo Music Education Podcast! If you tuned in to Part 1 of our conversation with Joel Copeland, you already know what a powerful and grounded voice he brings to the world of music education and leadership. And if you haven’t listened to that episode yet—press pause and go back! It’s packed with stories and insights that lay the foundation for what we’re diving into today.

In this second part, we go even deeper into Joel’s journey—especially his experience becoming a nationally certified Lead Teacher and how that process shifted his view of influence, impact, and leadership. You’ll hear his reflections on the true role of Highly Accomplished and Lead Teachers, why leadership is about connection rather than position, and how advocacy plays a vital role in sustaining music programs across the country.

He also shares some practical advice for music educators navigating the day-to-day—and a few “nuggets of fabulous” that might just reframe how you use your time and energy this week.

Whether you’re a classroom teacher, a school leader, or somewhere in between, Joel’s voice is one we all need to hear.

Let’s jump back in. Here’s Part 2 of our chat with Joel Copeland.

Resources Mentioned:

• Dr. Anita Collins – Bigger Better Brains

Connect with Joel: 

• LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/joel-copeland/ 

Where to find me: 

Crescendo Community Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/crescendocommunity
Official Crescendo Page: https://www.facebook.com/CrescendoMusicEd/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/CrescendoMusicEd
Twitter: https://twitter.com/crescendomusic
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/debbie-o-shea-62a3741b/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/CrescendoDeb

Introduction

Here is the Crescendo Music Education Podcast – Episode 154.

Debbie O’Shea 

Welcome to this episode of the Crescendo Music Education Podcast. We’re back with Joel Copeland from Canberra. We can hear a little more about his great insights into our wonderful profession and we’ll get to his nuggets of fabulous. I love the nuggets of fabulous. The don’t wait, just get in there and do it. I just love it. I think you will enjoy part two of my chat with Joel Copeland, a Lead teacher here in Australia.

This podcast is being recorded on the lands of the Turrbal people. I acknowledge them as the traditional owners of the land and pay my respects to elders past, present and emerging. They were the first music makers on this land.

If you’d prefer to listen to this episode, click here!

About ‘Read the Episode’: Sometimes, we would rather skim visually than listen to a podcast! That’s a great way to learn too!
The transcript of episode 154 of The Crescendo Music Education Podcast is below.

---

Debbie O’Shea 

Now you’ve sort of shifted into leadership. Just to be clear myself, because I’m in a different state. You work just with the teachers now, or do you still teach children?

Joel’s Role

Joel Copeland 

So the role I’m in at the moment, the program that we run is called the ACT Instrumental Music Program and we’ve got responsibility for a particular program, an instrumental program, that is run across almost every one of the 60 ACT public primary schools. We also run some high school band programs as well. We run a series of extension ensembles and some broader arts collaborative, sort of multidisciplinary events that happen throughout the year. As well as supporting schools just more broadly and generally with music and arts education. So the role I’m in at the moment, it’s more of a systems leadership role, which has been a great challenge. No, I don’t have any classes, so I don’t teach children in that formal sense anymore. I do work based at a school, so we’re here at UC High School in Kaleen.

So I do get to work on a Friday morning with the high school band here, which is good fun. I also conduct two of the choirs that we run through our program, which are auditioned choirs from the students across all the ACT public schools, so as sort of a primary based choir and a secondary choir as well that our wonderful colleague Katharine Finlayson, here in the ACT, she started those choirs many years ago.

So it was a real privilege to be able to come into this program and want to acknowledge my predecessor Naida Blackley as well, who led this program for a very long period of time with just incredible gusto and passion. So all of those incredible people have done great things here in the program. So that’s my contact every week with children, is that sort of three hours of choir rehearsals on a Monday afternoon, which I love. It’s great. But I miss the classroom.

Debbie O’Shea 

Yeah, that was my next question. It’s wonderful that you’re in charge of and get to shape this program and a lot of teachers. So in your leadership role you get to start those ripples that go out through the teachers to all the children. But I was just wondering if you missed actually working with the children.

Joel Copeland 

I do and I miss the challenge. Working with the choirs is great. The kids love it. They’re here because they want to be here and they love singing and that warms my heart, but I miss the challenge of classroom, the pedagogy, the sequence, the planning, the growth. I really loved that. So even in the leadership roles I’ve had previously in schools, I’ve always either had a 7-8 and 9-10 or a senior music class that I could go in and they’d challenge me every day. They challenge your musicianship, they challenge your patience, all of those things. You’ve got to think deeply about it.

You can’t just step into a classroom. Well, I mean, there’s many people who could try and I can’t remember who it was that gave me the advice around the three step lesson plan, which was the three steps before you walked in the door. But I’d like to debunk that myth. I think you could probably do it if you’re a jazz musician and improv is your thing. But I think teaching practice and children are so unique, diverse and as we know, just incredibly beautiful and special in their own ways. That to be an effective teacher, to have real impact, you’ve got to really put some thought and some care into just the planning, short term, long term. So short answer is yes, I do miss the classroom.

Debbie O’Shea 

Yes, and it’s not a waste. But I’m just thinking of all of those skills that you’ve got that you could apply to the classroom, but you’re not wasting them because you’re helping the other teachers. Do you find, I don’t know about your system there, but are your instrumental teachers able to apply for HAT and Lead certification in your system?

Joel Copeland 

Yeah. So the team that we’ve got here, so we are set up like a school, so we have school leaders and the teachers that work in our program, the Instrumental Music Program, are fully trained, qualified classroom teachers. So they’ve either trained as music secondary teachers or they’ve trained as primary teachers and then they’ve gone into music with a music background, one way or another they’ve ended up here in our program. So they are formally trained and qualified teachers. So absolutely and I’ve actually got one teacher within our team at the moment that I’ve sort of convinced to have a crack at the Highly Accomplished so he’s  just going through that process at the moment.

It’s brilliant, because I think sometimes there can be a bit of a myth around our staff going into the school to run these bands and it’s a nice, sort of fun opportunity for the kids.

Yeah, they go in there and learn their instruments. Away they go. We know it’s much deeper than that. We know that the learning, the planning, the teaching, everything that goes into it, it’s through the same lens as a classroom teacher would walk into a classroom music session or a primary generalist teacher would go into a literacy lesson, whatever it might be. That’s the same lens that our team take into the classroom there. So, yeah, it’s a really great mix of that experience. Many of them have got experience out in schools, bring it into this team and how we look at what it is that we deliver in our teaching and learning programs, and how we can have the greatest impact on the kids at the end of the day. So yes, I’ve got one at the moment who’s giving it a crack.

Getting a HAT as a Music Teacher

Debbie O’Shea 

That is fabulous. Oh, I love it, and that’s one of the reasons why Deb and I went through the HAT process, because we went, we’ve got to prove that this is for music teachers too. Because I’m going to over generalise here but there’s teachers, then under that music teachers, under that again instrumental. People have a bit of a generalisation that we’re not real teachers. We just sing songs. You just have fun. Okay? If it’s that easy, would you like to come and do it?

Joel Copeland 

Yeah, it’s interesting that comment there, because I think ultimately, great school leadership in my eyes, from the people I’ve seen do it really well in schools. It’s about culture and it’s about every adult, be them a teacher, school support staff, LSOs whatever, the sports coach, a music tutor, any adult or person who is working with those young people in the programs that are being run at that school, it’s building a culture where everybody matters, that what we’re striving for is excellence. And excellence might look like that kid tied their shoelaces and got to school, like that might be excellence for that kid on that day because everything’s going on. Whereas for another kid, it might be in a music context that kid has gone and done their AMus in Year Seven, whatever it might be.

So I think it’s building that culture based on values respect, integrity, inclusion, all of those wonderful things that schools stick up there on their logos. You’ve got to live them. If you’ve got staff rooms where people have that sort of mindset, it’s trying to break free of that and creating a culture where everybody’s respected. Regardless of what subject you’re teaching or what year level you teach, or whether you’ve got the extension class or you’ve got the beginners, it doesn’t matter. Everybody’s got an important role to play in the development of those young people and in shaping the culture in that school. Going back to the Highly Accomplished and Lead Teachers, I think they do that brilliantly and teachers that support culture, I think they’re the ones that make the greatest impact.

Debbie O’Shea 

Yes, and you do know, I was not saying that was my opinion, but I do love hearing that from you and I think that’s anyone in a leadership role, or anyone in any role, should have that view, every single person is important. Heavens, we do that for the children we teach. They’re all important and they’re all respected. Why isn’t that done for every staff member? And sometimes it is. The good leaders do, but just not all the time. So what do you think, I’d like to just finish up on the HALT thing before we just move on to our nuggets of fabulous. What do you think the future needs from us now, like from us as HALTs, from us as music educators and from us as school leaders. Where do you think we should be putting our focus and energies?

Joel Copeland 

Well, that’s a big question. We talked about leadership, I think it’s at every level. So teachers show leadership each and every day in their classrooms. You’ve then got other layers of school leaders on top of that, right through to school principals and boards. I think ultimately, it’s about shaping culture. It’s about creating learning communities where every student feels safe, where students want to come to school. That’s a huge thing. We’re seeing more and more of this school refusal. Not every school is for every student. One thing I’ve really learnt working in the public schools in ACT, is just this system’s leadership and thinking more broadly about the child.

And I think we can do that a lot better, potentially in independent schools as well, supporting students and families if that school is just not the best fit for them, supporting them to find that school that will really work for them. But working with the children, working with the families, bringing everyone together on board to create a positive learning experience for that child. I think the workforce is really critical as well. We keep hearing teacher shortage, teacher shortage, that’s going to continue to translate up to all levels, with school leadership and principal and boards, etc. So I think hold the line. We have a wonderful profession.

We should be really proud to be working in schools with young people. I think it’s an absolute privilege. So just continuing to advocate for the beauty that is being a teacher, getting new teachers in, retaining teachers, working really hard around supporting teachers in the wellbeing space. So equally, like we do with the young people, making sure the teachers are feeling that there’s an environment there for them to strive to be the best selves, that they’ve got opportunities to grow and to learn as well.

To be contributing positively to a culture that is ultimately going to be a really great place for everyone, for the students, the staff and the families to be a part of that. I think people are searching more and more for a sense of community, and I think schools have always done that really well, and we need to not shy away from that.

If I come back to singing, it’ll never leave me. But just in terms of building a school culture, there is nothing more beautiful than having an assembly with 1500 students in a school hall and one teacher with the skills and the confidence to get up in front of that group and get them singing, I just think it is the most powerful thing that we can do. So you keep an eye on me. We’ll keep fighting the good fight. I just think staying open minded to that holistic and broad education, but for championing the things that we know are just wonderful and beautiful for our students, our learning communities, which, you know we’re on this music education podcast, I’m going to say is music education?

Debbie O’Shea 

Yes, in solidarity brother, I love it. Okay, I would like to move to your nuggets of fabulous. I know some people who listen to this podcast who live for the nuggets of fabulous. So here we go.

Nuggets of Fabulous!

Joel Copeland 

No pressure!

Debbie O’Shea 

No, no pressure Joel. So these are Joel’s nuggets of fabulous. So it could be a piece of advice, a little gem, anything to pass on to the music educators that are listening today.

Joel Copeland 

Look, I’d probably say, don’t wait. Don’t wait for things to happen to you as a teacher in the classroom. Like, go after them. So if you see a gap, or you see an opportunity, just go for it. Don’t let no budget or not enough time stop you from doing things. No budget, find the money. Keep your advocacy going, step into that space. Look for grants. Be resourceful. Now, if there’s no funding, go out and try and find a philanthropist who’s going to support you. Be creative, as musicians and music educators, I think teachers are so creative just naturally, music educators then even more so, right? That’s our space, so we’ve got to think creatively around how we can control the things within our control.

Look to the positives, practice gratitude, but support each other as well. I think it can be isolating sometimes, potentially as a lone music teacher in that school. So just be open minded. Reach out to other colleagues in the school to look at your practice. How can you get better? How could you shape things? What ideas do you have? Because I got knocked back with that proposal, right? Just get up. I think that resilience, that musicians inherently, we develop that skill as we go through learning musical instruments and training to become musicians. I think we get very good at becoming resilient. So you’re going to get knocked back, you’re gonna have a great idea. It doesn’t mean that the principal or your head of faculty, or whoever it might be, is going to tick it off and get you to go for it, but go back, revise it.

Come again with another slant to how you can make it work and show those school leaders that you’re not going, this is a great idea. I need this money. Let’s do it. Come up with some creative ways that you can work holistically with the school, to link in with other projects, or that you understand the broader strategic priorities of the school, so that you can show, well we’re going after this as a school, right? That is a priority for us, inclusion.

So here’s a new program, or here’s an augmentation of a program that we can really tick that box and it’s through music and it does this, this and this. I reckon, if we’re creative with it, staffing wise or budget wise, we could do it like this. Write a really great proposal, put it forward, but don’t wait for things to happen. Go after them, be proactive, be resilient and just be proud of the work that you do and show that impact. Because all of those buzzwords we talk about in education, engagement, inclusivity, all of these wonderful things, they happen each and every day in our music classrooms. So be proud of that but be able to step up and demonstrate how you do that and advocacy is obviously a huge part of that.

Debbie O’Shea 

I love it. You’re speaking to my soul. I love it. Don’t wait, if you want to do something, do it. Just go for it. And supporting each other is really important, go with the situation’s priorities. I think there’s a superpower in that. Just as a little aside, when Deb and I got Together Sing started, we made sure there was a big element of singing together for wellbeing. Every year, we’ve managed to get a grant from Queensland Mental Health Week. Like, if this was just, we’re singing together, Queensland Mental Health Week wouldn’t be giving us money to pay the composer, would they?

Joel Copeland 

No, you speak their language.

Debbie O’Shea 

So hook on to their priorities. It’s a small tweak, because it’s stuff that we do anyway, but it gives your ideas and your projects, you just get over the line quicker, don’t you?

Joel Copeland 

Yeah, that’s it.

Debbie O’Shea 

Hooking into their priorities.  I love that feeling proud and showing all of the great things that you. They are wonderful nuggets, thank you. That actually leads us straight into advocacy. So you’re already talking about how we have to show people what we do. How? Sometimes it’s tricky, the how. Like big events, we put things out there. But do you have any other ideas of how we could advocate?

Advocating For Music

Joel Copeland 

Yeah, I think data is important. So speaking the language like who is your audience? If you’re speaking to the principal and then obviously through to the board, well just telling lovely stories might not cut it. So how can you show that data around impact? And that goes back to that Highly Accomplished and Lead stuff? How can you demonstrate the impact that you’re having? What things are you measuring? So what are the great things that are happening in your classroom that you want to be able to demonstrate and show? How do you capture those things?

But I also think, I just knocked it a second ago. But don’t underestimate the power of a story, because being able to tell a story and show that journey of growth for the young people is really, really powerful. People connecting with story, that tracking engagement, just that transformation I think is really powerful. Parents want to choose schools where their kids can go to, or they want to see from their schools how their student is growing, developing into a human being that’s going to be able to function in this world. So I think being able to tell those stories is really important. So don’t underestimate that.

There’s Dr Anita Collins, she’s doing great work in this space. I just would say, sign up for her courses, because they’re just phenomenal in being able to give you the language, the toolkit, to be able to really get up and champion at every level. It’s not, I know I mentioned this word earlier and I take it back, I mentioned the word fight. It’s not a fight because we’re actually all on the same team. I mean it’s just different people have got different priorities at different leadership levels.

So we just need to hold the line and advocate, that is the word. We want to advocate and champion for our areas and we want to do it in a way that is holistic, like understand what else is happening in the school. Because if we lock ourselves away into our little department or area, you go with a big proposal that you think is going to be fantastic, yet if you’d had a conversation with the head of science or some of the other classroom teachers who are doing a unit of inquiry on X, you might have reshaped how you actually went after that. So be open minded, be across the strategic priorities of the school and then use that to inform your direction in your work, in the classroom or your program, and how you want to build and grow.

Debbie O’Shea 

Yes. Oh, wonderful advice. I love it, because stories are powerful. We all get involved in narratives. Use that data and Anita Collins, fabulous.  I can also thoroughly recommend the course, being a Bigger Better Brains educator myself, lots of help there. You keep coming back to and I’m sure you’re aware of this Joel, but through our whole conversation, you keep coming back to a holistic view.

It’s a holistic view of the child, of the system of the people and if we keep track of that too within our advocacy and also interesting you mentioned the word fight and that we shouldn’t say it, except it feels like it. There are times it can physically become at least a verbal fight. So I guess as much as we can to try and change our thoughts and our language into advocating for what we do, rather than fighting. But gee, it feels like a fight sometimes.

Joel Copeland 

Sometimes it can.

Debbie O’Shea 

They are great hints, thank you. We’re getting to the close, I have just loved talking to you Joel, it’s been wonderful.

Joel Copeland 

Likewise, Debbie, if we could just schedule this in every week, that’d be fantastic. Just to lift my spirits.

Debbie O’Shea 

It lifts my soul too. So I hope everybody listening, I hope you’ve gone, oh, that was so great. I’m so glad that I have sort of virtually met Joel now, because we all need a bit of Joel in our lives.

Joel Copeland 

Come down to Canberra and happy to physically meet you as well.

Debbie O’Shea 

That’ll be great. Actually. No, I was only there a little while ago. I won’t be there for a bit.

Joel Copeland 

One trip a year Debbie, that’s probably enough.

Debbie O’Shea 

That’s right but this invitation is open to thousands of listeners. Okay, maybe not now. Before we go, I like to have a soapbox moment. You get to get on your soapbox, actually before you do, if anybody wants to contact you, what would be the easiest way? They might think, gee, I’d like to find out a bit more about the Instrumental Music Program there, or the HALT journey. What’s the best place to find you? On LinkedIn? Or where do you hang out?

Joel Copeland 

Yeah, LinkedIn is probably the best place to find me. Just Joel Copeland. You’ll track me down, ACT Instrumental Music Program. You’ll find our website online as well, which has got some information about our program and the great things that are happening here. Yeah, but I’m happy for anyone to reach out via LinkedIn and we can exchange emails. We’d love to connect with anybody, any conversations, anytime about music, music education, arts education, or just education in general, or leadership. We’d love to chat.

Debbie O’Shea 

Wonderful. And now we’re going to finish with some extra wise words while Joel gets on his soapbox.

Joel Copeland 

Oh my gosh. I feel like I’ve been on my soapbox for the last little bit. I don’t think people need to hear anymore from me, but I all I would say is we’re coming to the end of the term now. I’m not sure when this will be released, but I think just being kind to ourselves, like teaching is, I would say before having children, I would say teaching was the hardest job in the world. It now comes a close second to being a parent. Very close second, I think, yeah, being a parent is the toughest job in the world.

It has given me more empathy for the parents that I work with and that we work with out in our schools as well. So I think, everything we do, we just need to guide it with kindness. Our parents are coming from a place of care for their child. They don’t have the whole picture. They don’t have all of that information. So just being kind, I think we need more of that in the world. But I think for teachers, yeah, really my message would just be, you know, the work you do matters. It is so critical and so important and you don’t get the instant sort of gratification from it each and every day, but you’ll get those nuggets and when you do, hold on to them and cherish them.

That handwritten note from that kid that says, Thank you, you’ve made a difference in my life. Hold on to that, because for every one that you get, there will be hundreds more that you don’t get, and you will never know the impact that you have on these young people. I know through music and the arts, we get a lot of very vulnerable kids. They’re just attracted to music and the programs we run, and if you’re doing some great stuff out there.

You’re building a beautiful culture where those kids feel welcome and they feel accepted, and they can be who they want to be in your classroom and your music rehearsal spaces, you will do more than just teach those kids music. You will shape their lives and you’ll change the trajectory of their lives. So I just want to shout out to the teachers. I think you’re incredible. Thank you for the work you do. Keep doing that work. And yeah, that’s it from me.

Debbie O’Shea 

I think that is a wonderful soapbox to finish on. I just want to thank you Joel, for spending time with me and all of the other wonderful music educators listening. Thank you for your time.

Joel Copeland 

My absolute pleasure Debbie and thank you again for all the incredible work you do.

Debbie O’Shea 

Bye.

Sign-Off

Thank you for joining me for this podcast. Don’t forget, you’ll find the show notes and transcript and all sorts of information on crescendo.com.au. If you’ve enjoyed the podcast or found it valuable, you might like to rate it on your podcast player and leave a review. I’d really appreciate it if you did. All I can be as the best version of me. All you can do is be the best you. Until next time, bye.

Just for Laughs

As we know, laughter relieves stress, don’t lose sight of the funny side of life.
Why was the maths teacher suspicious of the graph? Oh, he was sure it was plotting something!