How to Build Deep Musicianship in Students with Ken Thompson (Part 1) | 181

Today on the podcast, I’m joined by Ken Thompson, advanced piano coach, music educator, and founder of the Musical Arts Center of San Antonio.

With decades of experience in piano teaching and music education, Ken Thompson works with high-level students while also mentoring teachers to build deep, long-term musicianship and artistry. His approach focuses on student-centered learning, helping musicians develop understanding and independence rather than chasing quick results.

In this first episode, we explore Ken’s journey as a musician and educator. Along the way, he shares key moments that shaped his teaching philosophy and explains what truly helps students grow into confident, independent musicians.

We also dive into what students really need from their teachers in order to thrive — not just technically, but musically and creatively.

If you’re a piano teacher, music educator, or performer, this conversation will challenge how you think about progress, success, and long-term musical development.

Let’s dive in.

Connect with Ken: 

Website – MACSAinc.com

Email – KT*******@******nc.com 

Instagram – @Ken.CreativeCoach

Where to find me: 

Crescendo Music Educatio: https://crescendo.com.au/

Crescendo Community Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/crescendocommunity
Official Crescendo Page: https://www.facebook.com/CrescendoMusicEd/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/CrescendoMusicEd
Twitter: https://twitter.com/crescendomusic
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/debbie-o-shea-62a3741b/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/CrescendoDeb

Introduction

Gday, I’m Debbie O’Shea and this is the Crescendo Music Education Podcast – Episode 181.

This podcast is being recorded on the lands of the Turrbal people. I acknowledge them as the traditional owners of the land and pay my respects to Elders past, present and emerging. They were the first music makers on this land.

Debbie O’Shea  

Thanks for tuning in again. I am so grateful for all of you, my listeners. This is part one of my chat with Ken Thompson. He’s the founder of the MACSA (Musical Arts Centre of San Antonio) Incorporated. You’ll hear all about him. Anyway, in this episode, I’ve only just connected with him and I absolutely loved my chat with him. I know you will too. He speaks to music educators hearts. This is just part one. Enjoy.

Debbie O’Shea  

Welcome to the Crescendo Music Education Podcast Ken Thompson. Hello Ken. 

Ken Thompson  

Hello Debbie, great to be here. 

Debbie O’Shea  

Before I even read your little bio to start, I’ll just say it feels sort of good and a bit odd to be talking to a Ken because my dad’s name was Ken. 

Ken Thompson  

Oh my goodness.

Debbie O’Shea  

Yeah and he passed away some time ago and you don’t come across many Kens.

Ken Thompson  

We are a rare breed. I’m not sure if that’s good or bad, but I’m gonna, because it was your father, I’m going to assume it was good.

Debbie O’Shea  

Yeah.

Ken Thompson  

I do appreciate you acknowledging that.

Debbie O’Shea  

So it’s lovely to be saying Ken again. 

Ken Thompson  

Awesome. 

Debbie O’Shea  

All right, we’re going to start with a really brief bio, so that people who haven’t met you before can get a little background. So Ken Thompson is an advanced piano coach, music educator and the founder of the MACSA Musical Arts Centre of San Antonio Incorporated where he works with high level students and mentors teachers in developing deep, long term musicianship. With a background in performance and decades of teaching experience Ken is known for his thoughtful, student centred approach that prioritises musical understanding, artistry and sustainable growth over quick results. His work extends beyond the piano studio, offering insights that resonate with music educators across classroom, ensemble and private teaching contexts. So I don’t think anyone listening now is going, oh yeah, I disagree with all of that. I think we’re all going, Yep, yeah, we’re already team Ken. This is great.

Ken Thompson  

Alright, woo hoo, yes.

Debbie O’Shea  

Alright. So that is just a really brief intro and it’s really about what you believe and what you’re doing now. But is there anything else that you want to add to that little snapshot of your work?

Music Advocacy & Inspiring More People to Learn

Ken Thompson  

Thank you so much, first of all for having me on and I guess the one thing that I’ve been really trying to lean into lately is reaching out to people that maybe have never taken music lessons before or are new to music lessons. I love preaching to the choir. I mean, I love being with my people and talking, and that’s what we’re going to get to do a lot today. But I’ve been really trying to lately embrace opportunities to talk to people who are kind of mystified by studying music and kind of warm them up and hopefully inspire them, especially with adult students. You hear a lot of people who wish they had taken or who had taken lessons and then quit, almost always around their middle school years. That happens and trying to bring them back. A lot of things have changed in the last decades, for the better I think. So that’s the one thing I would add, is that I’m really trying to kind of get this message out to everyone. Everyone needs to be playing music and learning music.

Debbie O’Shea  

That is really important. The more people that know about the value and power of music, we need to reach everybody so that then the policy makers can make sure music stays in our schools. 

Ken Thompson  

Absolutely. 

Debbie O’Shea  

So we need that whole advocacy piece.

Ken Thompson  

Big time, big time.

Debbie O’Shea  

All the time and you’re reaching the actual people and convincing them.

Ken Thompson  

Right, I’m doing my best. Like I said earlier. I mean, it’s fun. We actually need to talk to each other, because it is challenging, right? It is kind of a small world, but we need to also remember that even though we may talk to people who may not seem interested at first, we’re planting seeds in their minds. We’re helping them when maybe if we’re all doing this, all of us, musicians and teachers, over time it’ll really build awareness. As you said, in terms of making major policy decisions, well, it’s grown ups that are generally doing that. We need to be connecting with them on an emotional level. One of the best ways is to get them singing with your programmes and to get them playing and get them back into music and not fear it. There’s a lot of fear around restarting something like this, particularly with those that have quit maybe 30 years ago and are wanting to start again. Fear that they’re too old, or that they can’t learn, or they can’t learn as fast as a child will learn. They learn differently but that doesn’t mean they don’t learn as quick or quicker, really. So anyway, if anybody out there happens to hear this that is a non music person, please get involved.

Debbie O’Shea  

Gee, I’d love to think I’ve got some listeners that are non music people. But I don’t think I have.

Ken Thompson  

That’s okay. Well, they may. Who knows?

Debbie O’Shea  

Well, do you know what? We could put out a call now that all of the musicians, music educators out there, they could send this episode to their non music friends.

Ken Thompson  

Yes, that’s true. That’s true. If they did that, yes, that would be great. What a wonderful thing that would be. I have to say this really quickly though, I’ve been loving The Stalagmite Effect book that you recently wrote, so awesome. This is yet another example of The Stalagmite Effect, right? Like, if we all do that one little action. Especially if we did it in sort of a rhythm, then this will build. I think part of the reason we need to talk with each other like this is we need energy from each other and we need to feel like we’re not the only ones who think this is important. But yeah, we need to be dripping.

Debbie O’Shea  

I love you made that connection. Thank you.

Ken Thompson  

Oh, of course.

Debbie O’Shea  

I feel good. 

Ken Thompson  

It’s a great book. Before we go on, it really is an excellent book. I mean, I like particularly, well I like a lot of it, but you bring so much of it into real life and day to day, not only how to reach other people as a teacher but also in your day to day life. I think that’s really, really important to do both of those things, so awesome.

Debbie O’Shea  

Okay, well, I want to thank you Ken for being on my podcast and we could end it right there, but no, can I just circle back to a couple of things you said there? 

Ken Thompson  

Of course, yeah, absolutely.

Overcoming Fear, Talent Myths & Perfectionism

Debbie O’Shea  

Because it’s so important. It’s up to all of us to do our bit to send the message about how important music is and that if we can connect to others on some emotional level, show them the power of music. Because I think we are facing a lot of fear, like you said, whether they have started learning and stopped, whether they think I don’t have talent. You know that notion. Sometimes I think those sort of talent TV shows and stuff do almost more harm than good, because, well, they’re the talented special ones, whereas music is for everyone and the notion of talent can sometimes make people fearful. I know working in primary schools, your elementary schools, so many classroom teachers are so scared of music, like they won’t even play a song in their classroom or they don’t sing along because they might be heard, or there’s a lot of fear around music. It shouldn’t be like that.

Ken Thompson  

I want to touch on this, because you said something really, really important in there and it is fun to watch a talent show where somebody is doing these amazing things at sometimes a very young age. I mean this not to take away from that is, but if we go back even further into like, let’s say the 70s, 80s or the 50s. Back the last century, the way that music was kind of marketed, classical music marketed this idea of the prodigy, the genius who is untouchable and sort of like selected by the universe to be this amazing being, that sells a lot of tickets. People want to go see that. It’s something astounding, something unusual, something really remarkable. And it is remarkable, not to take away anything from those people that are in that position, but that does tend to be hard to relate to. We’re not seeing their struggle. I mean, I’ve taught people that people would call prodigies and yes, they are amazing, but they go through a lot. They go through a lot of struggle. They work very, very hard, very, very hard to do what they do. I think when we watch something like cooking shows one of the fun things about cooking shows is that it’s not just the chef who’s making it look easy. It’s the people struggling to come up with a beautiful dish, a delicious dish for us to eat. That struggle, we don’t see that in class. There are documentaries, there’s movies waiting to be made about the struggle of music, the good struggle that all of us go through. It’s very hard to relate to this kind of prodigy, I guess, experience, if you will. So anyway, I think that’s part of the fear is, I’m not good enough. I think one of your recent guests did something on world music. She was talking about how everyone makes music together and they teach through singing. Well, you don’t see a lot of people worried about whether they’re on pitch or whether their rhythm is off. They just sing. They use music. They use it in their lives. I think it’s a downside of our perfectionism, which is another very dangerous substance, the perfectionism of the classical which of course I participate in myself, but it sort of hurts us in a lot of ways, makes it even more fearful. So let’s embrace the mistake. Let’s embrace it and let’s learn from it. Maybe let’s not make the same mistake more than once if we can help it, but let’s embrace what we can learn from a good, honest mistake.

Debbie O’Shea  

Yes, yes, absolutely. That was the lovely Daria, she’s beautiful. But you’re so right and that’s what music should be at the heart and the soul. So that must be tricky in your work because you’re working with some of your students and especially if you’re mentoring these high level musicians, finding that balance between wanting to be perfect and being hard on themselves. If they’re not hard on themselves a bit they’re not going to keep pushing. It’s like I play piano, fairly badly, because I’m not that interested in becoming fabulous. I can play with the kids and that will do. But if I wanted to be a piano teacher, it would be a different story. So that must be a bit of a challenge in your work, finding that line.

Ken Thompson  

Well, yeah and part of it too is we all, I mean, not we all. I personally and I’m going to extend this to other people, feel that we’re here to grow. We’re here to grow. What are we growing towards? We’re growing towards our potential. Again, I didn’t want to take anything away from the people that appear to be prodigies, because that is remarkable and they’ve done a lot of work to be there. But what I think it is, is we all want to grow towards our potential and what that takes for different potentials is different things. I like to use mountain climbing as an example and of course, we just watched Alex Honnold climb the Taiwan Tower without ropes. I don’t know if you saw that, but we saw that in America. It was kind of astounding. But these people that climb these mountains, like Mount Everest or do free climbing, their potential is that. Now that is not my personal potential, but let’s just say that I wanted to train like that. I would want to be pushed. I’d want to learn the technique. I’d want to understand what it taught me about myself and how to handle fear and all these kind of things. But if I did have that potential, I would be challenging myself, we need something to potential against if you will, like we need a force that we’re acting, I hate to use the word against, but if we think of it like weightlifting or something like this, we’re using a force and we’re overcoming that force in order to get stronger. When we’re dealing with potential, whether that’s musical potential, reading potential, playing chess, whatever it might be, then you need something that is able to push against you, if you happen to be a person who can spontaneously learn things rather quickly, that force needs to be increased. So what I do with my students is, I’m very, very cognisant of where they’re at in terms of how much pressure they need. Of course, I get this wrong, because it changes on a regular basis and particularly as they go through adolescence. It changes quite a bit. But that thread you’re saying perfectionism, one of the things I like to say for that to them and this is really, really important, I try to tell their parents too, of course they mean well but sometimes they’ll say things that really can set the student back a little bit. So one of the things I say is if they’re playing a slow piece, it can’t be performing like for a competition. It can’t always be perfect, but it can always be beautiful. If they’re doing a fast piece, it can’t always be perfect, but it can always be exciting. So in other words, we can always send a message, what can we rely on? We can rely on sending a message. We can rely on beauty, excitement, those things we can rely on. Now that delivery of that message is in the container of the piece that they’re performing and the container of the piece of performing, that’s what we work on in practising. So we’re practising, we’re working on technique, memory, other kind of performance skills, so that when they’re on stage, they’re able to be completely free and if they fail, they have a way to get back. So it’s like with this guy who climbed with no ropes, it’s like if you had a rope you can climb and if you fall you can get out of it. That’s what we want, so that they are absolutely free. I think that in the preparation phase, you can have high demands that seem like perfectionism then in performance and you have to practice with students. This is another thing people don’t realise typically. You must practice performing on a regular basis. That can be by yourself or with a recording or something like this. If you try to just walk out on stage and play and perform, having never practised performing, it’s very, very, very risky. As a matter of fact, this ties into what we were initially talking about at the beginning, about adult students and quitting. I’ve sat on enough aeroplanes next to people who when I tell them I’m a piano teacher, I don’t just go telling people but they’ll ask. Then they’ll say I wish I’d never quit and whatever. If I’m in a talkative mood, I’ll say, Well, why did you quit? Tell me about that. Almost all the time and it’s usually in adolescence, pre early adolescence, they had a humiliating performance experience and they left the stage very upset and they usually say, Well, I wasn’t talented because I couldn’t perform or whatever. If it’s a longer flight, I’ll ask some more questions. Like, okay, well, what did your teacher do? Had you performed with that piece before? Had you done any memory preparation? How did you prepare for that performance? Usually what I find out is that was the first time they’d ever performed something. Anybody who has experience like yourself knows that it’s pretty much not going to go great. It’s going to go okay, but they’ve got to get that first few performances out. But most people never get their second, third or fourth performance. They only get their first performance, and they never get that awesome feeling of when you’re in the zone and in flow, that’s for those of us who do this right for our lives. We love that feeling of being in flow and with the flow of the audience as well. It’s a magical feeling. But you don’t get there unless you go through some of those stumbles. So that’s kind of how I try to balance those things, is preparation. So there’s many, many backup systems if something gets in the way. But always keeping in front of mind that this is a communication. It’s a sharing of your heart and we’re trying to reach other people’s hearts. You must never forget that is the reason.

Debbie O’Shea  

If you keep that at the front of your mind, then it’s actually not that important if you play a B flat instead of a B.

Ken Thompson  

Oh, you hit the nail on the head. That’s exactly right. That’s exactly right.

Debbie O’Shea  

You almost have to practice the performance. You’re almost practising the failure. You’ve got to learn to feel that. Going back to the against, I think a challenge would be a nice way to think of it. You’re giving them enough challenge to put them, okay I’m going to be a little bit education nerdy. 

Ken Thompson  

Go for it. Lay it on. 

Debbie O’Shea  

Put them in their zone of proximital development.

Ken Thompson  

I’m going to try to remember that word, that’s really cool.

Debbie O’Shea  

Yes, and I nearly couldn’t even say it but I know what it is. It’s vital to teaching, so you’ve got to put them under enough challenge that they can learn and strive but not challenge them so far ahead that there’s no way they can get there. Also, not to have expectations right below where they are. Which is a real challenge when you’ve got 30 kids in a class,.

Ken Thompson  

Absolutely.

Debbie O’Shea  

To get everyone in their zone of proximital development, but that’s what you’re talking about, just getting in that right place where they’re challenged and inspired and motivated. I guess that’s what studio teachers, piano teachers, private teachers, probably can do much more effectively than classroom teachers.

Ken Thompson  

Well, it’s interesting because I think that we have it a little easier because we’re able to craft what we’re doing to that specific individual student and at the same time I really think that the two work amazingly well in tandem. I mean, I remember I was fortunate to have music in my school when I was growing up. So when I did take start taking lessons I knew folk songs and my mum and my dad used to sing, we used to sing together and whatever. So when I started lessons I knew the little folk songs that I was learning in the lessons, it was very motivational because of that. Of course at the time I had zero idea when I was going to music, it was just fun. I loved it. It was a fun class. It was probably my favourite class of the day. Even more than recess, was just going to music classes. It was just a fun place to be and very safe place to be, I think, which was really important to me at that time. But anyway, so I think once I did start taking lessons and started to really work hard, my music teacher I remember kind of gave me some validation in the class and I got to do some special things, like play some special accompaniments and I just ate that up. I mean, I ate it up. It was so important to me to have. So I think we absolutely, ideally, are working in tandem. I will also share with you that I’m such a big admirer of anybody who can be in a classroom teaching situations. I’ve done class piano a few times and, man, so hard. It’s so hard. It is so difficult. You guys are absolutely amazing to steer that group as you do. But yeah, in terms of specifically what I’m talking about it is a little bit easier. Now having said all that, I think there is a lot that the classroom music teacher shares with performers, because when you’re on stage, you are sort of taking control of the room and you’re leading the audience. So as a classroom teacher, of course, the audience in a classroom concert is supposed to be quiet and not running around and stuff like this, which is different than probably a classroom of six year olds or something like that. But I mean, you need to have enthusiasm. You need to be engaged. You need to be vulnerable sometimes. You need to be sharing from the heart. You need to know what you’re doing. You’ve got to be on top of it. It is a performance, in a sense you guys are performing seven hours a day or more every single day. It’s a performance. So I think there’s a definite connection between the performance arts themselves and the classroom teacher.

Debbie O’Shea  

We are so performers, sometimes in early childhood classes when I’ve got my littlies, I honestly think I’m like the wiggles on speed.

Ken Thompson  

You’re all of them at the same time.

Debbie O’Shea  

Yeah, all of the wiggles. I am, look at the colours. Yeah.

Ken Thompson  

I love it. 

Debbie O’Shea  

Yeah. I have to correct myself, even though I wrote down proximal, I don’t know why I wanted to put a t in there. It’s the zone of proximal development. I’m sorry to all my other fellow educators, I just, yeah, had a little moment then.

Ken Thompson  

So let’s not be perfectionistic about it. We understood your message.

Debbie O’Shea  

I’m just enjoying this process and errors are fine.

Ken Thompson  

Wonderful. Yes, they are. 

Debbie O’Shea  

It’s about communication and the message isn’t it.

Ken Thompson  

Absolutely, that’s exactly right. Yeah, that’s right.

Sign-off

Thank you for joining me for this podcast. Don’t forget that you’ll find the show notes on crescendo.com.au/episode181. Also you can find the transcripts there, so you’ve got all of the details that you need. If you found this podcast useful, I’d really love it if you share the link with a colleague.  Remember, all I can be is the best version of me. All you can do is be the best you. We’ll meet again. I hope we will, bye.

Just for Laughs

As we know, laughter relieves stress. Don’t lose sight of the funny side of life. Did you hear about the archaeologists who got fired and now his career is in ruins?