Jessie Lloyd on Embedding Indigenous Voices in Music Classrooms (Part 1) | 164

Jessie is an Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander songwoman, composer, and cultural leader.

She’s the founder of Jessie’s Classroom and author of the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Songbook. Many listeners will also know her from the Mission Songs Project, which brings powerful Indigenous voices and histories to life through song.

Jessie’s advocacy for embedding Indigenous perspectives in classrooms has made a lasting impact across Australia. Her work beautifully connects culture, community, and education. Most importantly, she helps teachers approach First Nations music with authenticity, respect, and confidence.

I first connected with Jessie after hearing her speak at ASME. Her passion for empowering teachers through music truly stood out. I also purchased her Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Songbook, which has continued to inspire both educators and students alike.

In today’s episode, we’ll explore Jessie’s journey as a musician, educator, and cultural storyteller. We’ll dive into the origins of Jessie’s Classroom, uncover the stories behind her songbook, and discuss what authentic embedding really looks like in music education.

Jessie also shares practical advice for teachers — where to start, how to build confidence, and how to avoid common misconceptions. Each insight offers small but powerful steps toward meaningful change in the classroom.

If you’ve ever wondered how to bring Indigenous voices into your music room in a genuine and respectful way, this conversation is for you. Jessie’s stories are inspiring, her advice practical, and her message clear: music has the power to connect us all.

So, let’s begin this important conversation.
Please welcome Jessie Lloyd.

Links Mentioned in This Episode:

• Jessie’s Website – https://jessiesclassroom.com/
• Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Songbook

Where to find me: 

Crescendo Community Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/crescendocommunity
Official Crescendo Page: https://www.facebook.com/CrescendoMusicEd/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/CrescendoMusicEd
Twitter: https://twitter.com/crescendomusic
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/debbie-o-shea-62a3741b/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/CrescendoDeb

Introduction

Gday, I’m Debbie O’Shea and this is the Crescendo Music Education Podcast – Episode 164.

This podcast is being recorded on the lands of the Turrbal people. I acknowledge them as the traditional owners of the land and pay my respects to Elders past, present and emerging. They were the first music makers on this land.

Debbie O’Shea  

Hi everyone. It’s Debbie O’Shea here, today I’m joined by the incredible Jessie Lloyd, an Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander songwoman, storyteller and educator. If you don’t yet know her work, I’ll include the links in the show notes so you can explore. She’s an extraordinary voice in our music community and I know you’ll love hearing from her. What really struck me in the first part of our conversation is how thoughtful Jessie is about embedding indigenous perspectives in the music classroom. She shares her story, her inspiration and some of the ways we can approach this work with respect and confidence. I came away feeling both challenged and encouraged, and I think you will too. 

Jessie Lloyd‘s Musical Journey

Debbie O’Shea  

Welcome to the Crescendo Music Education Podcast, a very special guest today, Jessie Lloyd. Good morning Jessie.

Jessie Lloyd  

Good morning. Thank you for having me.

Debbie O’Shea  

Absolutely my pleasure and the pleasure of all of my listeners I know, because as music teachers we are doing our absolute best to authentically embed indigenous perspectives into our music classroom. I just know what you’ve got to offer is such a big assistance for us. But let’s start with just a little quick bio about you, for people who haven’t come across Jessie Lloyd. So Jessie Lloyd is an Aboriginal and Torres Strait Island songwoman and composer, founder of Jessie’s Classroom and author of the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Songbook, which we will be talking about a fair bit. If you’re watching on YouTube, there it is. She’s renowned for her work with the mission songs project and her incredible advocacy for embedding indigenous voices and stories into music education. So I saw Jessie present a session at the ASME National Conference recently, of course, I was one of the crowd that immediately went and purchased the book, going, Yeah, I need me some of that. Just watching your presentation was not only very useful because it introduced me to the great songs and things I can do with my classroom, but also very inspirational. So I thank you for that and I’m so pleased I was there. But that bio was so short what would you like to add to that snapshot of your work?

Jessie Lloyd  

I come from a musical family, so I grew up in music. My dad is a very well known Aboriginal singer. His name is Joe Geia. He’s considered a pioneer of Aboriginal protest songs. My grandfather was also a musician. He was the conductor of the brass band on Palm Island in the 50s. But I was actually raised by my aunties, my dad’s sisters, older sisters, singing in church and sort of communal songs, church songs. That was my musical influences. Yeah, the more I sort of realise that I’m drawing from the songs culturally and socially in how music plays a role in society, how music can heal, how music can connect, and how music can just help make the world a better place.

Debbie O’Shea  

Oh, I think we all agree with that and that’s lovely hearing that little bit about your background and growing up with music all around you. If you’re looking back at your journey as a music educator and a performer and a cultural leader what would you say have been the highlight or highlights of your journey?

Jessie Lloyd  

I don’t know, it’s all rock and roll, isn’t it? I would say discovering kind of the concept of Mission Songs Project was a real 360 trajectory for me.

Debbie O’Shea  

Oh, tell us about that. How did that all come about? The mission songs?

Jessie Lloyd  

Well I was raised in music and then when I finished high school, I studied music. I was in Perth and then I was in Melbourne, trying to pursue a music career. It was what most music people are told to do, how to be successful. What is music? You should make a song that’s radio playable. All of these sort of industry expectations. People would come ask me, you should go on the voice, or all of these typical industry expectations. But it wasn’t until I was working at Songlines, which is Aboriginal Music Co in Melbourne, working with local musicians and I just got old enough to sort of see below the surface of the industry and start exploring Australian history through music and social influences and social change through music and yeah, just taking the blinkers off of the music industry, and looking at music from different lenses, that was a big, big turning point. So now I see music not as entertainment, or as a profession. I see it as a tool for change.

Debbie O’Shea  

Yes, a vehicle for that change. I think that’s what we can do as music teachers too, isn’t it? We can start to plant those seeds that maybe our students and their families have never thought about music that way.

Jessie Lloyd  

Yeah. I think that’s the role of the teacher anyway, right? Whether it’s in a school or on a stage.

Debbie O’Shea  

Anyway, I interrupted you a bit to explain about mission songs. Was there anything else you wanted to talk about in your general journey, before we get to my favourite topic, which is gratitude. So anything else you want to highlight about your journey thus far?

Jessie Lloyd  

It’s been good. That’s all I can say. Can’t complain.

Gratitude, Collaboration, and Creating the Songbook

Debbie O’Shea  

Excellent. Well that leads us perfectly to gratitude. So for what are you most grateful for at the moment?

Jessie Lloyd  

Right now, I am most grateful for the love and patience and understanding from my wife and my children to let me pursue this work, which takes a team.

Debbie O’Shea  

Yes, although I’m sure that you are the passion and the brains and the energy. You just can’t do stuff by yourself, can you?

Jessie Lloyd  

No you can’t do stuff by yourself and it requires everybody to take the same considerations, to work around me. But professionally, there are two people I’m very grateful for right now, especially in relation to the songbook on Jessie’s Classroom. That’s Emily Wilson, she’s the Head of Music Education at University of Melbourne, she’s been just foundational in making this a possibility. It’s such a big task and it’s not something anybody could do on their own. Otherwise it would have been done already and having the support of her just in so many ways, of just helping make it happen that’s been pivotal. Also Cesar Rodrigues at Craate Creative in Melbourne. He’s really committed to the whole project of making the world a better place and starting with music teachers and helping me get all of the media side of things. So the songbook that you’re looking at, the artwork, the print, the designs, the fonts, the website, the digital videos and the audios and all of that, making it creative content for online and the physical, he’s been amazing. He’s my jack of all trades.

Debbie O’Shea  

Sounds amazing. I did meet Emily at the ASME conference. She was obviously so passionate about the project, she got quite emotional, didn’t she? She’s just committed. You can see it; it comes out through her pores.

Jessie Lloyd  

Yep, yep. We’re all just keen to get it right, it’s an exciting process. 

Debbie O’Shea  

Now I think that is a great little segue into talking about the actual book. All right, so I want to talk about this book because for years, I mean, literally, many years, I have met other music teachers that say, what have you found Debbie? What have we got? What can we do? How can we do it authentically and practically? Because we have silly, busy lives with classes coming in and out like a sausage factory, half an hour each. How can we actually make this work? Do it justice? So this is so wonderful to have something I can point them to. So how do you hope that teachers will use this in their classroom?

Jessie Lloyd  

Yeah, well, I’m trying to make the use of it as easy and as convenient as possible, and feedback from teachers will help. I spent two years kind of with Emily especially, just cruising around, doing a lot of schools and trying out different ideas, refining the repertoire, seeing what the sort of biggest gaps were, what’s the easiest formats. With Cesar we’re still working on the accompanying videos for the song book, which should be up by November. The goal is to make it as easy as possible and if you’re not confident, just press play and put me on the screen.

Debbie O’Shea  

Okay, so we can just tell people that the book has songs in it, background, very important, the stories about the song. Through your website, there’s audio files and there will be video files that show the actions as well as the singing. Is that the suite of things?

Jessie Lloyd  

Yeah, yeah, at the moment, because it’s sort of like the first six months, I just didn’t want to put everything up straight away, just so I could get feedback and response and see what’s the sweet spots, and what’s the big gaps? So I released the book in May. What are we? May? June, July, August, September and then about November we’ll have the videos. So with the songbook, it’s just the text and the audio on the website and I’m finding most interest from music teachers who are using that as opposed to the generalist teachers. The generalist teachers are obviously keen on the video content, because they’re probably not interested in reading music. Sorry I forget your question.

Debbie O’Shea  

Oh yeah, that’s okay. Me too. Oh no, I remember, just, is that the suite of documents that you’ll get when you purchase this book?

Jessie Lloyd  

Yeah? So you get the digital stuff. There’ll be a video of the actions, a smartwood video to play to the students. There’ll be a story of the song. Now there’s this thing that I say long story short song and long story short song is an important part of the cultural component of the songs is the important part of ethical listening. Actually it’s also a really versatile way of covering your ICIP, indigenous cultural intellectual property. There’s an activity that I’m developing for teachers to do. So these are the requirements in the syllabus, right? Make sure you’re working with local knowledge. Make sure you’re following protocol, make sure you’re covering ICIP, make sure you’re doing ethical listening, all of this stuff, all of this. They’re big, complicated requirements that even for somebody like me would be a challenge to do, and I think what the requirements are in the syllabus is too hard. I do this full time as a career and I come from a musical family, and it would take me years to build relationships with elders to get the knowledge that’s required for your music teacher to deliver. So this is why I’m trying to create resources to simplify it, you hit your targets, but you’re also not bombarding local Aboriginal communities for cultural knowledge that they might not be prepared to share.

Long Story Short Song: Respecting Culture Through Music

Debbie O’Shea  

Yes, now go on, that’s so good to hear you say because I don’t know. It’s just great. It’s just helps us to frame things properly as we’re thinking things through.

Jessie Lloyd  

Yeah, long story short song, I know it’s a solution, it’s a practice that I’ve been doing, and basically all it is you make sure you tell the full story of the song before you sing it.

Debbie O’Shea  

Well, in fact, I had picked out in my little overview to read this little paragraph on page two, long story short song. I picked it out to read, so now it’s a perfect time to do it. Before singing any of these songs take a moment to share the story behind it. Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander songs are deeply connected to their cultural and social contexts, which are often not obvious if you focus only on chords or melody. Which can I say is a bit of a danger when you’re a music teacher, because you’ve got your music teacher lens on, yeah? So it’s a good reminder. Listening to the audio recordings provided is the best way to learn with the notations there to offer extra support. Understanding the stories behind the song is how we connect. Let’s decolonise our approach to music and embrace the storytelling that brings these songs to life. I mean, if that’s the lesson that everybody takes away from this podcast, it’s worth doing, isn’t it Jessie? 

Jessie Lloyd  

There’s so much in that, it’s not only about making sure you’re covering your butts when you’re working with indigenous content in the classroom. It’s about showing music teachers, showing musicians in classrooms, that there is a different way of doing music than what you’ve been taught with your music degree. How Western society and Western music institutions perceive music is so limited, and music teachers have been trained in a very limited way. Like you say it’s automatic to go straight for the notation. I’ve seen music teachers run for my book. Check it. There’s a score. Yay. First thing they’re looking for is the blooming score.

Debbie O’Shea  

Yeah. It’s the way our brain works.

Jessie Lloyd  

It is the least relevant part of the book and it’s purely there just to get teachers, music teachers, competence. You don’t need it. Even if you sing the song out of tune, even if the kids sing it all in monotone, as long as they know that story and the context and that story lives on another generation that is more powerful than what dots and lines would do. That’s what I want to bring to Australia in general.

Debbie O’Shea  

Yes, I love that, yes, that’s an important message. I love even the terms ethical listening and ICIP, perhaps they’re terms that we need to use more as music educators.

Jessie Lloyd  

I wouldn’t, they over complicate. Long story short song. I don’t know who wrote the syllabus and all of these requirements working with indigenous stuff, but when I see the word protocol, half the time, honestly, half the time, it’s just talking about, be respectful. That is the sad part of it. What the requirement is, is just can you show respect to the song that you’re working with? Because Western society does not know how to respect multicultural music, ethnic music, even the term ethnic. I can’t even think of it now, but you know what I mean? Like Western music centres itself as superior and everything else is primitive or whatever, variations of.

Debbie O’Shea  

Yes, yes.

Jessie Lloyd  

So when it looks at something different, it doesn’t know how to look at it respectfully, because you’re trained to see the Western as superior. So when you’re talking about protocols, half the time, protocol is just like, can you just respect that song. Did you hear my clave story? 

Debbie O’Shea  

Yeah, I sure did. Yep. I love that. 

Jessie Lloyd  

That’s not protocol. That’s just respect. 

The Clapsticks Story

Debbie O’Shea  

Actually, it’s also manners. But anyway, would you tell the clave story? That’s really powerful. Should we say the clapstick story or the clave?

Jessie Lloyd  

Yes it is the clave story? Because the crux is in the clave.

Debbie O’Shea  

Yes true. Yeah. I would love to hear a short version of that story if you’re happy to tell it.

Jessie Lloyd  

Yeah, it’s a great example. This is also an example of long story short song. Mm, hmm, if I was about to sing to you a song with my clapsticks, right? So anyway, I went to an independent school, private school in Melbourne when Emily and I were doing research feedback from schools for this song book. I took my clapsticks in, and I’m singing to these kids and they’re only little kids. Said to them, Okay, kids, what are these called? These are called clapsticks. I tell the story and every time I say clapsticks, the music teacher leans over and corrects me and says, clave. I heard it and I ignore it anyway. I go sing my song, and then I thought I’d try the teacher again, and at the end, okay, everybody, do you remember what these are called? These are called clapsticks. Sure enough, that music teacher leans over and corrects me. Clave. And that’s the clave story of how an indigenous musician was corrected on my own cultural knowledge, because it was assumed that the Western perspective is more superior or correct, which creates a culturally unsafe workspace for me as a professional.

Debbie O’Shea  

It’s a really, really good example I think, of exactly what you’re talking about.

Jessie Lloyd  

I’m an opportunist. When I experience crap situations like that, I’m like, Oh, I can use that. There’s a lesson here for everybody to learn. That is the power of long story short song. I tell that story before I sing the song Bippera. If I just sang to you the song Bippera with no context, you’d miss 95% of the memo. Of the journey.

Debbie O’Shea  

I’m loving it. Alright, let’s get a little bit more, some more gems from your brain. So here we are, music teachers, we’re all listening to Jessie and thinking, yes, okay, good. This is wonderful. We’ll buy the book, we’ll do the songs, we’ll tell the stories. I will make sure that I don’t call the clapsticks that are in my big bucket with the claves. I’ll make sure they’re not just called claves as well, so we can take on all these things.

Jessie Lloyd  

Oh, well, just to correct, this is another part of the story. What’s the difference between clapsticks and clave is the same as what’s the difference between a fiddle and a violin?

Debbie O’Shea  

Yeah, that’s, right, it’s the cultural meaning and the music and messages. Yes? No? The type of music it plays?

Jessie Lloyd  

Well, a violin and a fiddle player could explain that. It’s what you’re playing, it’s who you’re playing, it’s why you’re playing. When you’re playing certain songs, you’re playing a fiddle. When you’re playing certain other songs, you’re playing a violin. Clave and clapsticks, apply the same.

Debbie O’Shea  

Love it. 

Sign-off

Thank you for joining me for this podcast. Don’t forget that you’ll find the show notes on crescendo.com.au/episode164. Also you can find the transcripts there, so you’ve got all of the detail that you need. If you found this podcast useful, I’d really love it if you share the link with a colleague. Remember, all I can be is the best version of me. All you can do is be the best you. We’ll meet again. I hope we will, bye.

Just for Laughs 

As we know, laughter relieves stress. Don’t lose sight of the funny side of life. I tried to catch some fog the other day, but I mist.