Metacognition with Michael Griffin, Part 2

Introduction

Debbie
Here is the Crescendo Music Education Podcast – Episode 27. In this episode, I’m going to continue my chat with Michael Griffin about metacognition. He has so many interesting things to say. They’re things that I think all music educators should be thinking about, considering, seeing how they apply to them in their situation.

I am definitely planning to have some more chats with Michael Griffin, I think we need to pick his brains a little bit more, he’s got so many great things for us. Sit back and enjoy this episode.

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About ‘Read the Episode’: Sometimes, we would rather skim visually than listen to a podcast! That’s a great way to learn too! The transcript of episode 027 of The Crescendo Music Education Podcast is below.

Episode 27 “Read the Episode” Transcript

Michael Griffin
Languages is a great directive for the mind. And so the more we can empower students with words, the clearer their thinking will be it’s usually associated with thinking grows this.

Debbie
Yes and I think also, my mind just went off on another tangent, at the HALT summit in Brisbane last year. So for the HAT and Lead Teacher Summit, that was my first one and it was very exciting. John Hattie was speaking to us about teachers explaining about their thinking, I can’t actually refer, he had a little phrase for it. And he suggested that you video a lesson or a segment of a lesson.

But then you turn the sound down for parts of the lesson. And the teacher then explains what they were thinking at that time in that lesson, because he’s always believed that, as I think you’ve already mentioned, that one of the biggest indicators of success for educational outcomes is the expertise of the teacher, the quality of the teaching, and he said that understanding the thinking of the expert teacher is going to help other teachers.

Michael Griffin
Well that does consolidate that idea of we are thinking models, and we are the experts for our children. So if we look at that, say in instrumental teaching context Debbie, it might look something like this. There’s two things, I encourage instrumental teachers to do that they may not have done before. Some have, of course. One is to watch their students practice. Now I’m thinking of the one and one traditional type music lesson on the clarinet or the piano or whatever. But do you know how your kids practice?

And as John Hattie said, the most important feedback is actually the feedback we pick up on the students competence and incompetence, we need to be very clear about what they can’t do, and why they can’t do it as well. So to pick up that, it might say, Oh, welcome, welcome to your lesson today, Debbie, it’s a bit different, I’m gonna sit in the corner, and I want you to practice just like you do at home. I want to watch you practice.

Debbie
Oh, good heavens. Wouldn’t that reveal a lot.

Michael Griffin
Well it’s funny, because I’ve had teachers come back to me and say, Hey, Michael, I tried that idea you talked about and one teacher said, it just blew my mind. It’s so powerful, because now I know, it’s really targeted my teaching, I know what we have to work on.

And another teacher said, well, the kid prepped for about one minute and they threw themselves over the back of the chair and said, What now? What do you expect me to do?

Debbie
That said a lot.

Michael Griffin
I don’t mind kids feeling a bit uncomfortable. I mean, our job as teachers is to challenge right, it’s not all, you know, there’s a lot of nurture and that, but high expectations, high expectations, it includes a bit of challenge as well, you know, so I don’t mind that.

The second thing back on the first one. And that reminds me of a Gary McPherson study, which he found that, and I think I’m quoting it correctly, 80% of kids under the age of 14, you know, how they practice, they go from the first note to the last note once through without stopping to fix anything, right. So your power of words, which you’ve alluded to, I call that the run through, kids thats a run though, it ain’t practice, You know, let’s be clear about what is practice then, hence the discussion, hence the clarity, hence the power of a whole vernacular around music practice.

Now and I asked kids, pop up your hand, that’s very powerful kids even raising their hand is a sign of volition. Put up your hand because I speak to kids about practice, put up your hand, if you think you’re a bit too much of a run through player, if that’s basically what you do. So many hands go up, exactly. Who in this room doesn’t always start at the beginning. Maybe you go to page three where the tough stuff is. So we guide them in that way.

The second thing I reckon is a pretty good idea. And this is a bit like your John Hattie example of modelling you mentioned a moment ago. Is be the model. So I might say, Oh, welcome to your piano lesson Debbie. Hey, bit of a change today, I’m going to be you. So I’ll take your music, you can sit in my chair Debbie. And I’ll put that on the piano. And I model and I think through the process of how I’m practicing, so I model. So here we go, da da, da, da, da dum bum, dum, da da da do ah. Oh, I made a mistake. So this is an act, it’s a metacognitive modeling act. Ooh, how would I fix this error? That’s a bit of a mistake there. Oh, go back from the beginning. Hang on, I don’t always have to start at the beginning, the first phrase was fine.

So I’m speaking out aloud by modelling to the student, my thinking process. Right, I’ve got that right. I’m going to play it three more times, slowly. And I’m going to close my eyes now and see if I can play it with my eyes closed. So we’re going through the various ways that I could secure a phrase of music. And that’s very powerful. Again, I had some teachers who’ve tried this, give feedback to me a while later, and one teacher said, Hey, Michael, I tried that idea and I was playing and this students jaw dropped and she said, No, you don’t really practice like that.

And she said, I do, because kids don’t know, I think we assume too much. I remember when I was a kid, my teacher would say something to me, and he’d look at me, do you understand Michael? And I’d nod my head. Now, the head nod has never been a good indicator of whether a kid knows it. They just nod their heads, it doesn’t mean anything.

Debbie
As a formative assessment tool. A head nod is not the best.

Michael Griffin
No, it’s not a good check for understanding, let’s face it. I wish I knew this as a young teacher, but anyway, better late than never. But so we know, the best way to check for understanding is you model, now you do it, or you take slow practice, telling your kid verbally to practice slowly, does not change behaviour. It’s a waste of time, we need to model this is what I mean by slow. Now you sit down and copy my tempo. And that way they have to do it, don’t they? They do it.

Debbie
Yes. And that is making me think like in the classroom. So when we’ve got, I’ve got 25 to 30 kids at a time and say we’re getting ready for a little composition assessment task, you know, and most of us follow some form of gradual release model where you know, I do one, we do one together, then you do your own, you know, some sort of variation of that. And I think good teachers do the same I do one with a lot of language around it and with mistakes. And with if I do this, how would that sound? I don’t like that. Why doesn’t that sound right? Oh, I should be I think it, what if it finished on do? Because we’ve talked about that. And it really doesn’t sound finished? Does it? Let’s have a listen.

I mean, that was just a little example that popped in my head. But by talking through what you’re doing, and with your modelling, show your thinking process, probably a little slower for the younger kids, you’ve got to like you said, you’re probably not going to play the wrong note, as the piano teacher, you might have to do that deliberately. So you put in a few little deliberate things to illustrate the point. And I think good teachers sort of do that, don’t they? And they explain.

Michael Griffin
They do, and it’s lovely when kids see us as, we’re just learners like they are.

Debbie
It’s so important.

Michael Griffin
In terms of evaluation, I used to do that. In this keyboard course I refer to, there are these little ditties that they need to master. It’s a mastery teaching, a mastery learning course. So I would play some of these pieces. And I’d say you have to assess me and make it simple. wrong note, is it too fast too slow? Tell me about the tempo. Tell me about the expression. So yeah, it’s an act you deliberately do this and do that, and the kids will be learning assessment, you know what you said about watch me do one and now you do one.

Well in some context you can extend that one one more step and it reminds me of the William Glasser taxonomy of how we know things, you know, have you seen this? It’s like, we remember 10% of what we watch, 20% of what we hear. And then there’s about seven or eight stages and then we are multi sensory learners. So when it gets to, I’m seeing and listening at the same time we recall 50% of that content, but the greatest one and it’s like 80% of what you do yourself.

So now you do one is so powerful, but there’s one more step, 95% is what we teach to other people. So yeah, so that’s one of the best metacognitive strategies we have. Can you teach me how to do this? Can you show me how to do this? Can you explain to me how you did that. Can you show Jenny over there? How you do that? So enabling teaching is is a very powerful strategy and kids love it.

Debbie
What was the name of that dude?

Michael Griffin
William Glasser. I can send you and your listeners, I’ve got a few things. I’ve made posters, only A4 but I can send you a few things.

Debbie
That’d be great. That would be great. So much learning for us to do as educators isn’t there.

Michael Griffin
Oh yeah and it’s fascinating. And you take what we just talked about, there’s a school in Sydney, I was invited to address some parents about music practice, and how they can encourage their children at home. And we’re talking about some of these things. And afterwards, I had this gentleman approach me and he said, Hi, Michael, I’m a surgeon, and what you talked about some of the things you’ve talked about metacognition, this is what we do at surgery school, it’s quite a known thing for surgeons to learn their trade. It’s called see one, do one and teach one.

So they watch a procedure, now they do a procedure, but then they have to teach a procedure. And he said, what’s interesting, Michael, is that, we found that when there’s been mistakes, in professional practice, it’s often been that teach one step that’s been missed. So I thought that was interesting.

Debbie
Very interesting.

Michael Griffin
And I think, kids, when they teach, gee, you have to know your stuff, don’t you? Remember, when we teach? You really have to know and you have to learn how to find your words, you have to explain, you have to shift that procedural knowledge. I can do it, but I can’t explain it, to declarative knowledge, which yeah I can do it and I can help you. I can verbally explain it as though it’s a deeper level of knowing. It really, I think it shows the kids and exactly what they know and what they don’t know very clearly, if they have to teach concepts to one another.

Yeah, I love it. So I do, we do, you do, you teach? We can add that on the end? I love it.

Debbie
Well, yeah. There’ll be contexts where that works. Absolutely.

Yeah, I’d love it. Now, I haven’t even gone back to have a look at how we’re going with questions because we’ve just gone off on this lovely tangent.

Michael Griffin
Just having a chat.

Debbie
Having a chat, which I love, which is wonderful, Michael, I’m loving it. However, it’s a bit frustrating, because it’s just pointing out to me all of the things that I want to get further into. And then I remind myself, but do you know what? I believe if anybody, especially an educator, gets to the point where they feel they know it all, then that’s time to leave the profession.

Michael Griffin
Well, I’m with you. And I like the words of Rachmaninoff he says their musics enough for a lifetime but a lifetime is not long enough for music.

Debbie
It’s not.

Michael Griffin
Isn’t it wonderful? And the richness of the musical journey, because it’s so good for the self isn’t it and there’s so much that it does for us cognitively, emotionally, spiritually, physically, with skill development, it just opens up experience after experience. And for me, there’s so many ways to be involved in music that everyone can express their musicality can’t they through different genres. And that’s why I think when you if you talk about advocacy, I think that whole idea of talent is not going to help the world become a more musical place.

Because there’s people who think oh some of you are talented, and some of us aren’t. And so there’s a dichotomy, there’s a divide there, we want everyone to think they’ve got, everyone’s got the capacity to make music, as you said in your opening statement, everyone’s got this capacity, we want to embrace that, we don’t have to predict who’s going to be the next Mozart and who’s not, you don’t have to go down that path. The most successful goal anyway, is I just want to get better.

And incremental improvement is one of the joys of life, learning is a pure joy. So let’s enjoy the journey. And okay, we know the kids will have different starting places, we know some have more ability than others at a certain point of time. We know that that’s basically based on the quality and the quantity of effort. And we know it’s also to do with early childhood factors. Yes, nurture and things like that. It’s we know that that’s involved.

Debbie
But talking about advocacy, I agree. I agree. And of course, it makes a lot of sense. But how do we, coal face teachers, if you’re a studio teacher, teaching piano at home, or if you’re in schools, high school, primary schools, how do you help convince society that our job is worth having, you know, when music has been fairly recently cut a bit from our school programs, because it’s not essential? How do we actually, what can we physically do to help tell people how important our job is? It’s all right. You and I are having a talk about this.

And it’s fascinating things with mindset, and metacognition. People listening to us, I’m sure many of them are nodding their heads, lots of things we’re saying, but what do we do for the other teachers who are maybe afraid of music, because they were told they didn’t have talent, the administrators who just are only really worried about trying to minimise workload and not too worried about what actually happens to the children’s brains, or the system, people that are just, you know, they’re not. Yeah, you know what I’m trying to say? How do we educate the people who don’t believe in us.

Michael Griffin
It prooves very frustrating, and I remember giving a concert once. And then at the end of the school concert, when I gave a concert with my students, of course, and the principal got up, and with the best of intentions, he said, Thank you, Michael. Thank you, the music department. Thank you wonderful boys and girls who do this concert, he says, and he said to the audience, he says, I don’t have a musical bone in my body. So it immediately sends a message that some people are musical, and some others aren’t. And of course, inside I’m thinking, Oh, my goodness, I wish you didn’t say that. But we can’t always say what we want to say. What you say it is very frustrating.

And the thing is, there’s people who are very articulate in getting messages out there about the goodness of music. I mean, Richard Gill was one one of them. That is good, but also being very clear about is the total fabric that join, puts everything together, this we know how important music is, we could go on about it forever, as you said, and we are. But that’s not working and see, this is why I get back, I think, unless the administrators, the decision makers, unless they’re involved in music, it’s gonna be a slog uphill, I’ve come to that position, because I know they know the data. They know the song room data, they know about improving NAPLAN results, that they know stuff like that. They’ve been told, but they’re still folding their arms. I think it has to be experienced.

So it’s a long, long term journey. But I think that we would be doing ourselves a favour if we are inclusive in our language, which means forget the talent stuff. Just don’t go there. Focus on everyone becoming more musical and try and get them involved somehow. But that’s a long term thing. Personally what I do is I take every opportunity I can get to awaken people’s understandings, because these days, Hey, musics my first love, it’s my main area.

But you might know I do general PD now. I do a lot on metacognition and mindset. I give parent talks about encouraging their kids to embrace excellence and to go for it and work at something in a sustained long term project way. And I take every speaking engagement as a chance to give music a plug, in my writing give music a plug, about why it’s so good for personal development.

Debbie
And I guess if everybody made the difference wherever they could, it would help wouldn’t it?

Michael Griffin
Yes, but we do need to arm ourselves with a clarity of explanation and purpose. And that’s as you know, that doesn’t just happen. And the young music teacher, they might be tongue tied. If they’re asked, okay, tell me why my kids should do music. Why is music so important in life?

Now, after a while, we can maybe wax lyrical about it. But it takes practice, you almost need to make summary notes of what do I really believe in? And can I can I articulate and advocate for music education? Based on you know, I’ve got one of my books, I think, you know, Bumblebee! Rounds & Warm-ups.

Debbie
Yes, it’s on my shelf.

Michael Griffin
There’s a little chapter at the back, just a few pages and it’s advocacy. It’s about why choirs are so, so wonderful in society. And I know some people have read that and got back to me and to say, you’ve armed me with some material Can I quote you? I say you don’t even have to quote me just use it. You know, that’s as long as it gets out there makes a difference. So yeah, we need to help each other be articulate.

And I guess those of us who are getting older, have been around for a while, like me, you know, maybe if we can help young teachers with their advocacy, and how to maybe prepare things to say for a parent night, how to take that moments break in a concert, just to maybe applaud the efforts of the musician because see if they say oh, we’ve got all these talented musicians, this is our school. People don’t relate talent with effort you see, so to say, you know, these people have character, because they’ve worked at this, you know, you don’t just become a musician.

It’s a process over time and it’s character forming. If they learn how to say some of these things, then I think slowly, but surely, it’ll make a difference. But it is as a hard slog.

Debbie
Hard slog, and there’s some good bits of advice in there. And I can, it’s taken me this long to do it, unfortunately. But I’m finally, I have joined up, just yesterday to Bigger Better Brains as well. And so I want to access that some of those nice summaries and things that Anita Collins and her crew are doing.

Michael Griffin
Yeah. And that’s put in a way, which is, you know, it’s understandable, it’s clear, and that’s what we want.

Debbie
And I think that’s something to that I will make sure, I try to do that through Crescendo in little ways with quotes and things. But I think more can be done in that space to help people to, I love this clarify and articulate. I’ve written those down on my pad here, clarity, articulate, and if we can help some of the people with that.

Michael Griffin
For sure, and you know, you mentioned the thing about posters on walls. Listen, let’s not underestimate how powerful that can be. And I think you know, at some of the posters I’ve made about music practice. So like Heraclitus, what did he say, if nothing is ever repeated, nothing can be known, stuff like that.

And I think music, studio rooms in schools, they should be adorned with lovely quotes and art, and saying, to lift the mind, to lift the spirit, and for teachers to refer to and have kids read and discuss, you know, we fire arrows of inspiration, don’t we Debbie.

Debbie
Oh that’s beautiful, arrows of inspiration.

Michael Griffin
We never stop trying. We do know that we can’t force anyone to be passionate about music or love it but we we try and we encourage, we will demonstrate, we reveal our love ourselves of this area. And we certainly try those things. And that’s for me, it’s just another way of, of putting something on a wall that might move a kid might make a kid think, you know, just have a think and that’s what we do. It’s like Socrates said, I can’t teach anyone anything. I can only hope to make them think and enable their curiosity, arouse their curiosity to want to investigate further.

Michael Griffin’s Nuggets of Fabulous

Debbie
I love that. And although we’ve not come, by the way, pardon my cough, this has been months, I just can’t quite shake it. I did not ask specifically about nuggets of fabulous. But you’ve, you’ve dropped plenty on us. You’ve given us plenty of nuggets. Was there anything, though, that you meant to mention that we haven’t yet?

Michael Griffin
Oh, well, look, we could we could probably, we have a lot that we enjoyed talking about Debbie so we probably could. But when you’re talking about nuggets, that’s something that I really like about metacognition. I know in my investigation I have learnt so much about really good questions, you take help, the whole idea of helping the child, now it’s a bit of a double edged sword, because you know, some kids will put up their hand before they’ve thought, they haven’t even thought about it.

And if you understand wait time with questioning, we know from studies, if you delay, your average wait time in a classroom is less than 1.5 seconds, that time between the hand goes up and the teacher said yes, if we can delay that to between three and five seconds, there’s, I think it’s a 600% increase in engagement. There’s answers based on evidence, there’s less wrong answers. There’s Oh, all these wonderful things happen.

So if you want nuggets, learn about wait time, not only primary wait time, that secondary wait time is when the kid gives an answer. And then we don’t immediately confirm or deny their response. You know how sometimes it’s instantly like, Yeah, that’s right, well done. Or say, oh keep thinking, but it might be silence. It might be using Harvard University’s favourite question, What makes you say that? What do you base that reply on? So they’re some of those smart questions. And what do they do? It’s a bit like delaying the perfect cadence. It delays, that you delay the answer, and you keep the interest there, it’s the questions that peak the mind, not the answer. So you keep asking questions and delay the final cadence if you like.

So, nuggets, well metacognition, good questions. A kid asked for help. What? You know, my first response when a child asked me for help, why do you need my help? What is it you can’t do? Because we need kids to understand, you know, oh, I can’t do it Miss I need your help. And we do it for them.

Debbie
We just jump in.

Michael Griffin
What did they learn? Now I know that’s, I mean, that’s how I used to do things. But think about it a bit more carefully now. Because at the end of the day, we want them to be self determined to be able to solve their own problems and not need us. So we can scaffold that, very slowly of course.

And I’m not saying you don’t help kids. I’m saying we’re just a bit more careful before we jump in, have they done everything they can before they need my help? What? Why do you need my help? So now some of these might be age appropriate too. There’s another response that kids give, you know, you ask a question, they say I don’t know, I don’t know. How do you deal with the I don’t know response? There’s some really neat ways to deal with that.

I mean it could be, you could ask them, why don’t you know, if you start to see, do I need to speak up? Is there a word you don’t understand? Maybe you weren’t concentrating? There’s all sorts of reasons why that might be the case. So how do we deal with I don’t know? Now, we could flip that and say, Well, okay, tell me what you do know about this topic. Tell me something related to this topic. In other words, we’re not letting the kid off the hook are we? We we’re turning this into a learning experience? Because we know that with the utterance, I don’t know, some kids say that simply because they can’t get the teacher off their back.

And they know that if they say, I don’t know, the teacher will move on to someone else. Well, that was nice and easy, wasn’t it? Yeah, not with some teachers, Oh you don’t know? Well, let’s talk about that for a minute. You know, so we can challenge but as I said earlier, we’ve got to challenge kids. Teachers, the most successful schools, have universal high expectations, that’s high expectations for everyone to improve.

We don’t know, we don’t know where, just get better, we believe all kids can improve. So some of these might sound a bit even abrasive or challenging, but they don’t have to be put that way. But we do, we need to challenge kids to think deeper. So there’s a couple of things anyway.

Debbie
They are wonderful. They are and they’re really important. And it’s good to be reminded of those things, you know, you get in the everyday grind of teaching, it’s very easy to take the easy way out, because it is sort of the easy way out, you know, I don’t know. And then oh good I’ll go to someone else because I’ve got five other things I need to do in this half an hour. So it’s that reminding yourself.

Michael Griffin
Yes people need reminders more often than they need to learn new things. There’s a lot of good stuff we know. And even, you know, my courses, I say to teachers, and I say look you’re going to know a lot of what we talk about today, what we do today, but I hope it serves as a good reminder of sound pedagogy and things that make your teaching enjoyable and further engage and encourage the children.

And I think I’ve learnt in my life when things are not going right in something, often it’s going back to things that we used to do, the basics, if you like and some of these things. I’m sure your listeners are familiar with a lot of what I’ve talked about today, but it’ll just pick them up. And you hear it in a different way too, don’t you? It’s like variable repetition.

It peaks the mind, because I didn’t think of it like that. You know, it’s a nice word. I like that word. I’ll use that phrase. I like that question. What makes you say that, some teachers will be familiar with it. Others will think wow, that’s a beauty. It’s like the difference between like praise and feedback, praise, we’re tired teachers, it’s easy to say that’s great. Well done. That’s really good. But it doesn’t do anything for the kid.

Because praise is informationless feedback. Feedback needs to be specific, quick, accurate. Consistent, good feedback is hard to get because you have to be precise with your words. It’s a lot easier to say yeah, that’s good.

Debbie
I love that there’s so much to think about. And I’m looking forward to jumping in to one of your courses. I will confess I’ve not, I’ve flicked through a couple of your books that are good and we’ll put in the show notes we’ll make sure we link to where people can find you. So they can look that up. Can they find you in social? Do you have a social media platform you use or prefer? Or not really?

Michael Griffin
I do a bit on LinkedIn, do a little bit on Facebook? If you put links up, oh, maybe I can put a 20% discount code or something like that. So if they want to have a look, they can get a bit of a Debbie special.

Debbie
Oh, that would be lovely. I wouldn’t say no, someone might jump in.

Michael Griffin
I’ll make a discount voucher code called Debbie20 (see notes in the introduction or links at the bottom for more information).

Debbie
Thank you, oh that’s very generous.

Michael Griffin
A nice little discount on my products if they’d like to investigate further.

Debbie
Oh I think that would be great and we’ll put all of that in the show notes so people can go to whichever episode this ends up being sorry, this is because I’m doing a lot of recording ahead of time while I’m teaching full time, I have to do that. So Michael, I seriously think we could keep talking. But I think we have to, we have to call full time on this recording.

And I think that we just have one more, you get you get a chance to get on your soapbox. I just like to offer my guests the chance to finish off by getting on their soapbox and telling the world something that’s most important for you to say. So what would you like to say?

Michael Griffin’s Soapbox

Michael Griffin
I think I’ve said, I think I’ve said it. And I guess that Tolstoy’s preface to what is art. He said, one of the dangers, one of the dangers with teaching, with life as the more experienced we get, the more we think we know about the world, that the less flexible, we tend to become in accepting new ideas.

And I think that’s so true because there’s it’s easier to think, as you said before, that it’s time to give up if we think we know it all, right. That learning psychology is a magnificent journey and it’s so exciting to learn things every day, for example, quite recently, I learned about that saying just do the best you can, which many teachers and parents use in the hope of encouraging their children. Now, you know what we’re now about saying just do the best you can, when we say that, the most likely outcome is the kid will do worse than if we didn’t say anything at all. Oh, how does that work?

Well, actually, I know how it works, because I’ve looked at the psychology and it makes perfect sense. So we won’t go into that right now. The point I’m making is, there’s so many things out there that we have, as Tolstoy said, We’ve lived and worked with and believed it’s become part of our schema, but is it based on evidence?

And are there other ways of seeing things and doing things? So I would encourage your listeners to get out there and have a look at mindset, and metacognition, it just could revolutionise your teaching. And to get specific with the teaching of practice, quite simply, if you look it up, or if you visualise a simple diagram, where we want kids to continue with their music. Well, we know the number one reason kids quit music is because they’re not getting any better, they’re not making progress. We know that the reason kids don’t get better is they’re either not doing any practice, or they don’t know how to practice.

So they just do the same old, same old, run through and they’re not getting better. So basically, what that means is if we want our children to become to be motivated, and to continue in their musical journey, yes, they’ve got to practice and they’ve got to know how to practice. And they’ll be more likely to practice if they can see it making a difference, if they can see their progress. But there’s a little bit to finish off with.

Debbie
I think that is a wonderful place to finish. And thank you so much for talking to us, Michael.

Michael Griffin
Been a pleasure Debbie, thank you.

Debbie
Thank you for joining me for this podcast. Don’t forget that you’ll find the show notes on crescendo.com.au/ the number of this episode. Also, you can find the transcripts there. So you’ve got all of the detail that you need. If you’ve found this podcast useful, I’d really love it if you share the link with a colleague. Remember, all I can be is the best version of me. All you can do is be the best you. We’ll meet again. I hope we will. Bye.

Sign Off

This podcast is brought to you by Crescendo Music Education, connecting, supporting, and inspiring music educators. You’ll find links to Crescendo’s social media platforms in the show notes. Please connect with me and be part of the Crescendo community. You might consider becoming a Crescendo member. You can access hundreds of files, worksheets, printables workbooks, repeat workshops, and webinars for a low annual fee and receive great discounts on events. So come and connect with me, Debbie O’Shea. See you in the socials.

Just for Laughs

As we know laughter relieves stress. Don’t lose sight of the funny side of life.

Did you know that stealing someone’s coffee is called mugging?

Links Mentioned in the Episode:

Metacognition: Teaching Children to Think

Feel the Fear…and Do It Anyway

Michael Griffin has created a discount coupon code:

Michael’s personal website is professional-development.com.au and contact michael@professional-development.com.au

Where to find me:

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