Introduction

Here is the Crescendo Music Education Podcast – Episode 125.

This podcast is being recorded on the lands of the Turrbal people. I acknowledge them as the traditional owners of the land and pay my respects to elder’s past, present and emerging. They were the first music makers on this land.

About ‘Read the Episode’: Sometimes, we would rather skim visually than listen to a podcast! That’s a great way to learn too!
The transcript of episode 125 of The Crescendo Music Education Podcast is below.

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Debbie O’Shea 

Hello and welcome to the Crescendo Music Education Podcast today I am joined by David Law. Hello, David.

David Law 

Hi, Debbie. It’s so lovely to be involved and thank you so much for asking me. I’m really flattered.

Debbie O’Shea 

My absolute pleasure. I can’t wait to get into this. In fact, we had trouble pressing the record button because we were chatting for too much.

David Law 

I know I’m sorry I love to talk.

David Law’s Bio

Debbie O’Shea 

We’ve gotta go I said, we’ve gotta record this David, it’s gold. Okay, I’m going to start by reading your bio and I had ChatGPT reduce it for me, because it’s so wonderfully long. So this is the shortened version so you can add anything I miss out. Okay, alright. David Law has conducted the wind ensemble since 2009. Starting his QIO journey as a member in 1997 he studied euphonium at Queensland University of Technology and has played piano since age eight.

He is the founding President and Musical Director of the Queensland Wind Orchestra. He also conducts Brisbane West Side Orchestra and has guest conducted for various ensembles, including the Brisbane Philharmonic Orchestra. David is an experienced clinician and conductor working with Queensland Music Festival and Griffith University’s state Honours Ensemble Program.

He regularly leads school honour bands and presents at conferences on successful school band programs. Additionally, he has adjudicated state and national competitions in musical theater. He has served as Music Director and Conductor, trained at the Godspeed Musical Theater Institute and conducted workshops for Opera Queensland. Currently, he is the Head of Performance Music at Redeemer Lutheran College, directing award winning ensembles.

David Law 

Well, no wonder I’m so tired. It’s a lot, isn’t it?

Debbie O’Shea 

It is a lot and I’m sure there’s stuff missed out.

David Law’s Conducting

David Law 

Oh, I just think, Oh, my goodness, what have I done?  I laugh about it but one of the things that I’m so grateful for Debbie, is that I get to conduct across all of those different levels, from my beginner band here at school all the way through those honour programs and the Queensland Youth Orchestra and the Queensland Wind Orchestra, which is an extraordinary community ensemble. And then I also get to do band and strings and choir as well. I feel so lucky to be, I think the term that we’re using now is a portfolio conductor, where we conduct across a number of different disciplines and what a privilege to be able to make music in so many different ways. That’s what I was hearing when you were talking about my bio. I actually feel really privileged. So yeah, and a little bit embarrassed.

Debbie O’Shea 

But I think that’s one of your characteristics that I think draws me to you, I don’t want to use the word humble, but I sort of mean humble. I mean approachable, open, not superior, even though you have amazing skills and you work at all of these different things. I mean, just recently, you were the adjudicator at my school’s finals of the state fanfare. We were one of the top five primary bands and you were the adjudicator. You do all of these amazing things and yet you are still generous and open.

David Law 

That’s a really kind thing to say. And Debbie everyone feels that way about you too. So let’s just turn those tables around for a quick second and have a look at your amazing work that you’re doing in this podcast and the fact that you are so open to sharing all of your ideas with everyone. But that’s the whole thing, isn’t it? We can’t do our jobs by ourselves, we have to be nice to each other and share our ideas and have conversations like personal and professional.

Because music, of course, is very personal. So I like to be open and I like to share and I like to talk about our craft and I like to talk about student achievement. I wish there was more time. I want to hear every story about every child learning music across the whole state, I wouldn’t be bored at all. I just think it’s really important to share. When we talk about the adjudicating, I really love giving back as well. So I don’t really see it as sort of like you said, I don’t feel superior or that I’m judging others.

Debbie O’Shea 

Judgemental, there’s a difference.

David Law 

Yes, I don’t feel like I’m being judgmental. I just really love sharing, this is what I hear, here are some things that you can improve on. I hope that when my students do competitions as well, that I receive the same sort of open and honest and warm feedback. So it just takes a moment to be thoughtful and it doesn’t take any time to be warm and nice and friendly and no matter how stressed and overwhelmed we’re all feeling as teachers and everyone feels like that all the time, there’s still time for a laugh and there’s still time to be thoughtful. I think that, you know, it’s just music. We can just take a second to be grateful that we get to do that and everything else sort of doesn’t seem as important.

Debbie O’Shea 

Yes, wonderful. That shows through everything you do.

David Law 

Oh, stop it. I think, yeah, okay, let’s move on, I’m feeling uncomfortable.

Debbie O’Shea 

Okay, okay, yes, let’s move on. Because the other way that I’ve connected with you recently, well, relatively recently, was at Pub Choir.  Can we just go to? I know this is going off script, but that’s alright. Can we just talk Pub Choir? Because I don’t go to as many Pub Choirs as I would like, but I probably go to one a year, because I’m an Astrid fan. I’m a singing for everyone fan. I make sure I’m in the front row, because if I’m going to go, I’m there, it’s quite pitiful. I can’t quite analyse why, but I’ve gotta be in the front row. So that one at Riverstage you were conducting. How did that all happen?

Pub Choir

David Law 

Well, Astrid used to be a singing, I’m sure she won’t mind me talking with you about her, but she used to be a singing teacher here at Redeemer, where I work, and we just became friends. When she runs those big charity nights, so the one at Riverstage was one of those charity events where I think she was fundraising for Women’s Legal Services Australia, so that’s a great chance to get involved in the community and give back. Not just that too but just ask a whole heap of friends to come and play in those fabulous orchestras. Do you know Debbie that she does those arrangements herself?

Debbie O’Shea 

Yes, I do know it’s mindblowing.

David Law 

Not only can she run a choir for thousands of people at a time, but she really can arrange and orchestrate. I mean, she is gifted, so why wouldn’t I want to work with somebody like that, who not only is really talented and really skilled, but also, and most importantly, believes the same thing that we believe that music is for everybody.

You don’t have to have that awful word talent to be able to make music with other people. That is the reason that I do Pub Choir, because I think music should be for everyone. That’s the philosophy that underlines, really, most of the work that I am interested in as a professional, but also here at school and in any of the things that I do outside.

If I’m going to give up my time to do extra things, I want it to make sure it’s inclusive and people feel good about themselves at the end of it. They’re the things that Astrid is really tapping into. And I, by the way Debbie, would like to say that I did see you in the front row having the time of your life. How lovely to see you singing your guts out and killing yourself laughing. See, it’s just good for the soul, right?

Debbie O’Shea 

Ah yes and it’s the laughing too. Without the laughing, here we are just going, oh Astrid fans, but she’s got the mix right.

David Law 

She has got the mix right.

Debbie O’Shea 

Those GIFs just crack me up. Of course, so clever the way that she’s using colour and contour, melodic contour to teach non musicians how to sing their part. There is a part of me. I’ve got used to it now, but the first time I went, can I just have the music? Can I just have the music? I’ll sing it better if I can read the music and then I went, No, come on, go with the flow.

David Law 

But isn’t that great for our brains as musicians to be engaging in music notation in a brand new way that she has sort of invented, that is not inaccessible? She’s made music making accessible. She’s made music reading accessible. I mean, I just think that’s an amazing thing, isn’t it? I think about that when I’m conducting my students now too. I have a group here at school called The Fellas, which is an unauditioned boys group from Years 7 to 12.

We just rehearse once a week at lunchtime and most of those boys cannot read music. They just love to sing. I do some arrangements of pop songs, rock songs, those kinds of things and when I’m conducting them, I’m constantly thinking about what Astrid does with Pub Choir and the way that it’s about contour. It’s not always about the actual names of the notes and how I can sort of merge those two things together.

Because, of course, I want my students engaging in music notation, but at the same time, I want them to feel successful, so I want to sort of collide those two things together. Actually Debbie, we do spend a lot of time talking about contour and look, you can see those notes going up and down. Your note stays the same when you turn the page. You know your note is the same.

So the note will be exactly where you were. So the things that she’s been doing with that massive community all around the world. Sort of, I can take some of those ideas and put them into my own work. I think actually, just talking to you about it now, we try and do that all the time as professionals, don’t we? You go and see somebody do something amazing and you think, Oh, how can I take that macro idea and make it like a little micro idea that I can use? It’s pretty great, isn’t it? Aren’t we lucky to have access to all of these things?

Debbie O’Shea 

It is, it is, I think it’s why I’m a PD junkie.

David Law 

You are a PD junkie.

Debbie O’Shea 

I’m at everything. I’m at everything.

David Law 

I have a friend of mine and we talk about this all the time. There’s nothing better than watching or listening to someone talk about something they’re passionate about. So no matter what it is, no matter what the content, if you listen to someone really passionate of course you want to do what they’re doing. Those little nuggets, they just turn up, don’t they? You want to see everything, because you never know when a great idea is going to come past.

Debbie O’Shea 

Yes, I get FOMO really badly if there’s something that I can’t go to. But just before we leave that notation idea, it’s actually reflected really strongly in Kodály pedagogy.  I’m quite openly a Kodály inspired teacher and that’s every time you teach a new element, and particularly if you were talking pitch element, I mean that whole contour thing in the lead up is vital. Whether you’re using the kinesthetic body signs and hand signs, but also pictorial representation.

With the ball is going bounce high, bounce low. That’s part of the preparation for that. But I think where it could impact in basic pedagogy is you could also then include that concept in more of the practice, rather than once you’ve gone to notation, still use notation, but occasionally pop in something that’s more I don’t want to say graphic notation, because I don’t want to just put dots on the page and hit a drum. I don’t want to go quite to that. But if we’re talking notation, use elements of the preparation in your practice.

David Law 

Well, I think we’re talking about accessibility too, making sure that everybody has an understanding of pitch. As someone who takes a beginner band. I reap the benefits of the Kodály training that happens from Prep to Four. We start our beginner band in Year Five. So by the time students get to band, they already have an understanding of how their voice is working. They have an understanding of high notes and low notes. They have a pretty good understanding of how to read treble clef, which is fantastic for students who want to move into bass clef. If you can read a clef, you can read any clef. So I think that all of those building blocks and using all of that knowledge really helps all the way through someone’s music journey.

Debbie O’Shea 

Oh, I believe that. Mentioning your beginner band, if you look back at your whole journey as a music educator and you obviously really do like working with those beginner kids. What would you put though as a highlight or highlights of your journey so far? I want you to mention gratitude too, because I like asking all my guests about gratitude, because I think that in essence gratitude keeps you focused and passionate about your job. If you’re not grateful, then you’re probably going to start turning into the mean, cranky teacher. 

David Law 

Or leave the professional all together. Yeah.

Debbie O’Shea 

Yeah. So highlights and gratitude.

David’s Highlights and Gratitude

David Law 

Gosh. I mean, I have so many highlights. I think actually the highlights and I think this towers above everything, is the relationships that I’ve been able to build and maintain and cultivate. So the first thing I think of is the amazing relationships that I have with my peers, with my colleagues and people I’ve been working with for nearly 20 years and sharing knowledge with people who I care about and learning about what makes them tick. Then travelling around the country and sharing all of that knowledge with other people and gaining knowledge from them and I think all of those peer and collegial relationships; that’s probably the thing I’m most grateful for. Especially when work is not always easy, any job comes with its challenges. I see you laughing.

Debbie O’Shea 

Like what an understatement. Work is not always easy.

David Law 

Everybody knows that working can be hard, right? So if you’ve got amazing professional relationships with people, actual human beings who have feelings and thoughts. Those relationships can really help you get through the tricky times too. So I think that’s probably the thing I’m most grateful for. But if I look at highlights and I think the expected answer is that I’ll say, Oh, look, I got to conduct the Australian Honours Ensemble program a few times. Or that I made the Queensland Wind Orchestra with some friends of mine and now it’s one of the top ensembles in the country I suppose.

But actually, the real highlights are this immense privilege that I have for being able to see a student through from the beginning to basically the end. That I start students in Year Five in the band program, or sometimes I’m part of their journey from Year Two when they start strings and I see them all the way through their school. At a P-12 school, I get to see them all the way through school.

I get to see them grow as musicians. They might play in QIO with me as the conductor, I might intersect from time to time with them when they’re at tertiary studies and then they go off and I get to watch them play in the Queensland Symphony Orchestra, or I get to see them weekly in my Queensland Wind Orchestra rehearsals and I think, man, how grateful am I to be a part of someone’s musical growth.

Being a part from that first seed of music making all the way through to it being like a glorious tree. What a terrible metaphor, but it is a privilege. It is such a privilege to see students grow all the way through their music journey. I think that, in combination with the fabulous relationships that you make along the way, so the student relationships and relationships with their parents and family members, like even their grandparents who come to concerts and then the relationships you have in the workplace with your colleagues and peers, I think that’s probably a big combination of gratitude and highlights, because I think maybe they go together.

Debbie O’Shea 

I love that answer and I feel that answer here. I love tree metaphor analogies, it’s one of my favourites. In fact Together Sing, I hope you know about Together Sing?

Together Sing

David Law 

Of course.

Debbie O’Shea 

Good. When Deb and I made that up in a motel room in Mackay in September 2018 I just went into Canva and started creating and I literally made up that logo, the tree.

David Law 

That’s amazing.

Debbie O’Shea 

Because the tree, to me, it’s something that I think really reflects what we do.

David Law 

I think so.

Debbie O’Shea 

Right from the feeding of the roots and the trunk and the branches and eventually you get this gorgeous foliage and flowers and stuff. But if you don’t have nice solid roots leading in and you don’t have a good trunk, you don’t form that basis, you’re not going to get the beautiful flowers.

David Law 

One of the things that I think about when we talk about the tree metaphor is that plants, like a tree, they always look good. You don’t have an ugly trunk first and then the branches and the leaves come out, you have a small tree. That tree always has branches and leaves and it’s always growing. I think that there’s that sort of misconception that, oh, my child plays violin and it’s terrible and I hear them practicing and scratching away in the background.

Or they’ve brought home their glockenspiel for the first time from band and they just bash it or whatever. But actually that’s not true, like we see as teachers, that it is a really amazing little tree right from the beginning. That it does have a branch and it does have leaves, but it’s just small. It’s only just in its infancy. I think that when we think about the metaphor growing into a massive, big tree, it still has been a tree all along. Ah, does this make sense Debbie?

Debbie O’Shea 

I love that. I love that. I am adding that to my heartfelt tree analogies. I love it.

David Law 

I was not expecting to dig into this today.

Debbie O’Shea 

Who would have thought we’d be talking about trees?

David Law 

But you know what I’m saying, I think what I’m really saying is that there’s something to celebrate about a musician right from the beginning. Right from the moment when they open their instrument case on the very first day. There’s something to celebrate. The very first sound we make on our mouthpiece, the very first time we use our bow, even the first time we sing, the first time we’re able to do a concert with our friends in Year Two or Year One or whatever.

There’s always something to celebrate. So that tree is always growing and it continues to grow too, right? I mean if you’re at the other end of that tree and you’ve got this beautiful, big, amazing thing, the top musicians around the world are still learning, are still sharing, are still attending PD, are still growing in new ways, too. So I think maybe I made fun of the metaphor, but maybe it’s actually a really good one.

Debbie O’Shea 

I actually think it’s fabulous. I’m going to even add to that, because I have to, I believe that everybody is a musician. I don’t believe you have to be professional and be paid or get to a certain level. Right from when those kids walk into my classroom in Prep and make a circle and hold hands and sing Ring a Rosie. We are being musicians. They are musicians. They are growing and learning.

David Law 

Well this feeds into my philosophy that music is for everyone, everybody. Music is for everyone. It’s inside everyone. It just needs to be nurtured. But everybody can do it and everyone can participate in their own way. It doesn’t mean that everyone has to become a professional musician, but music speaks to everybody and sharing music with others is one of life’s great joys I think and everybody should have access to that. I know that you feel the same way, Debbie.

Debbie O’Shea 

That’s why we’re fighting so hard to make sure that music is in every school. Exists in the heart of every school. You can’t get rid of it. It’s so important. We are all musicians and we all need to express ourselves that way, even if all you ever get to do is be part of classroom music and especially if you’ve got qualified music educators that know what they’re doing, there’s so much learning that can go on in there and if it feeds into an instrumental program, all the better. But often there’s not an equitable access to instrumental, so let’s at least make sure they get the good classroom stuff.

David Law 

So, yeah, well, I mean, you and I both know too that classroom music doesn’t just feed into an instrumental program. I mean, classroom music also feeds into all of the other areas of their learning. All of the research shows that music does great things for your brain, and I know I’m preaching to the choir here, but I think that if we have really well trained primary classroom teachers everywhere, then we’ll see results go up in not just instrumental music, but in maths, in science, in written language. We know that, but it comes down to training too, doesn’t it? It’s about making sure that students are learning music well and not just listening to pop music. I mean, which is great, let’s be honest. But it’s not a healthy diet.

Debbie O’Shea 

No, that’s right, you need a balanced diet. That is really true.

Sign-Off

Thank you for joining me for this podcast. Don’t forget, you’ll find the show notes and transcript and all sorts of information on crescendo.com.au. If you’ve enjoyed the podcast or found it valuable, you might like to rate it on your podcast player and leave a review. I’d really appreciate it if you did. All I can be as the best version of me. All you can do is be the best you. Until next time, bye.

Just for Laughs

As we know, laughter relieves stress, don’t lose sight of the funny side of life.
I went to the beekeeper the other day to get 12 bees. I counted them up and found he gave me 13. I said, Sir, you gave me one extra. He said, That’s a freebee.

Links Mentioned in the Episode:

📜 Crescendo Music Education Podcast | Episode 125
🎶 Together Sing
🎙️ Episode 72 – Together Sing

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