Introduction

Here is the Crescendo Music Education Podcast – Episode 126.

This podcast is being recorded on the lands of the Turrbal people. I acknowledge them as the traditional owners of the land and pay my respects to elder’s past, present and emerging. They were the first music makers on this land.

About ‘Read the Episode’: Sometimes, we would rather skim visually than listen to a podcast! That’s a great way to learn too!
The transcript of episode 126 of The Crescendo Music Education Podcast is below.

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Debbie O’Shea 

I do want to get on to your beginner band program, that’s interesting. But before we leave this classroom and instrumental music what are your thoughts around how these two things work together? Because, in my experience, there’s often, often not always, a bit of a divide. There are the classroom teachers, there’s the instrumental teachers and if there’s ever a combined PD, such as things like the Maryborough Conference, which is the not Maryborough conference now. We’ve got the strand for classroom teachers. There’s the strand for instrumental teachers. You’re allowed to get together when there’s a keynote, but that’s about it. It’s as if we’re different creatures and I know that the nature of our job is slightly different, but there’s a lot of overlap. So what are your philosophies on getting these two things working together?

Classroom & Instrumental Teachers

David Law 

Well, they have to work together. I mean, the best programs, when we look around Queensland and even the country, the best programs are the ones where the classroom program and the instrumental program are working collaboratively. The best results come from everybody being involved in a student’s musical journey, not separate paths. So I think that in some ways, that conference doesn’t quite have that right. I mean, I think there’s a lot that classroom teachers can learn from the instrumental part of teaching. And I think likewise and this is often not spoken about, is that instrumental teachers can learn a lot about what’s happening in the classroom. Here at Redeemer, we talk all the time about this triangle.

So there’s a triangle of student musical success. One point of the triangle is classroom music. Another point of the triangle is ensembles and the other part of the triangle is music lessons, music tuition. We think that any student who is successfully operating in at least two of those points of the triangle is having a positive musical experience. So it might be a student who has piano lessons and does classroom music, happy, satisfied, good musician.

Someone who is in the classroom in Year Six and might sing in our choristers, the choir for Grade Give and Six students, happy, no problems. But it’s like, when only one of those things is working, then that’s sort of like, it’s a shaky sort of musical situation. So if a student is only in an ensemble but doesn’t do classroom music and doesn’t do lessons, I mean, they’re not actually going to have a great experience, because they’ll probably get left behind.

If we’ve got a student who’s doing classroom music but maybe doesn’t do an ensemble and doesn’t have lessons, likewise they’re not going to be having the richest experience. So we talk constantly in our department about those three points of the triangle overlapping and at the top end too Debbie, like in music extension, the classroom teacher does want to be speaking with the person delivering music tuition, so that those things are lined up for those students who are doing really remarkable things as part of the music extension program in Year 12. So that triangle is so important and the stronger the triangle is the stronger the relationships are between the different points, who are the beneficiaries of that? The students, of course. So we think that it’s so important to integrate.

David Law 

On a personal note too, I want to know what’s happening in the classroom so that I can be mindful of particularly the language that is being used in the classroom and when I’m delivering my rehearsals, so that I can speak about music the same way that music is being spoken about in the classroom, so that students realise that music, it’s everywhere and that everyone speaks the same language. Sure, I’m holding a baton and I’m conducting a band piece, but actually it’s the same as singing a song in class, or it’s the same as that Grade 4 AMEB piece they’re working on in their music lessons.

So I think making sure you’re aware of what’s happening that just enhances the student experience. So you’d be crazy not to want to know what’s happening in the classroom, not to mention that I can do some of the same warm ups. I can use some of the songs from classroom in the band room, we can try and figure out some of the songs that we’ve been doing in class, in band or strings.

And sharing across the two, across the disciplines, is the best and it’s fun, like, let’s talk about it being fun for a second. It’s really fun to collaborate and it’s really fun to see students, the little light bulbs going off when they’re like, Oh, hang on a second, I know this already, because we did it in class. Or hang on a second, I already know how to talk about Stravinsky, because we have been playing music that is similar to that in band.

These are the terms that have been used. So when I go to write about music at a high level in the senior syllabus that I’ve already thought about how to talk about music. So I think we want to collaborate, we want to use the same language and of course, students get to see that it’s all one big thing too. I could talk about this forever. The other thing is, of course, that students get to see us as professionals collaborating too and that’s really important that young people get to see that those professional relationships are important and valued.

So when they go on to study at university or to be just professionals in the workplace, they have sort of had role models, or they’ve had sort of examples of that, that they remember from school where they’re like, oh, you know, I saw the classroom teachers and the band teachers talking about this and they remember those kinds of things.

Debbie O’Shea 

Absolutely.

David Law 

So it’s just essential. On a really basic level, we keep coming back to this beginner band thing for some reason, Debbie, but when we go to work out who’s going to play what instruments for the first time in Year Five, we talk with the Year Four classroom music teachers to see what students are like and who would be best to play an instrument where you need a little bit more independence, like if we’re talking about something like tuba or bass clarinet or tenor sax, where you need to be a bit more independent, because there’s not a big section of those instruments in the beginner band.

Which students would benefit from being in a bigger section? Which students like loud sounds, which students like soft sounds? Which students need to sit at the front? So having relationships with the classroom teachers who really see primary students every week and know about their learning styles and know what makes them tick, that helps us build an instrumental program that is in the best interests of the students as well.

So I don’t think we can underestimate how important the relationship is between classroom music and instrumental music and I would like to see way more collaborating. I was very lucky, because when I first started playing a band instrument back in the early 90s, my band teacher was also my classroom music teacher and that made, I think maybe I’m just realising this now, that maybe that stayed with me my whole life, that I could see those two things as being connected, which of course, they are and should be.

Debbie O’Shea 

Where was that? Was that in Queensland?

David Law 

Oh yeah it was in Queensland. I was lucky Debbie, because I had Glenn Court, who is an icon. Very lucky to have had great teachers. Oh, my goodness, I’m so lucky. And I had Jenny Moon at high school as well. So I mean, I have been on the receiving end of great music education since I started. But with classroom and instrumental, it’s still music, it’s still music making. So I think when we all get on the same page, when we all get into the same car and we’re all going in the same direction, I think that’s when the results are at their very best.

Debbie O’Shea 

I love it, and we actually do work together, listen to each other, cooperate and like you said, we’re helping to form those connections for kids too. And we all know the more connections you’ve got, the better for your brain. So it’s better internally but it’s also better externally, working with others.

David Law 

We’re talking about the students, but it’s also true for us as adults, isn’t it? When we have people who share the same vision and it makes the workplace a lot more enjoyable and we can learn from each other, I mean learning is so great. Who doesn’t want more knowledge? Bring it on.

Debbie O’Shea 

I did one of those tests. I’ve got to find where it is, because I’d like to do it again, that you go through and it comes up with your values. There’s a huge list and you answer these questions and it comes up with your values in order and mine at the top is learning. I thought, yeah, that’s why I’m a PD tragic, I guess.

David Law 

That sounds right for you. Yeah, you do love learning, but you love sharing, too, Debbie and that’s what everyone loves about you.

Debbie O’Shea 

Oh, well, thank you. It’s my turn to be embarrassed now, but it is true and it’s essential that we need to share and it’s a problem often with classroom music, instrumental too depending on your situation. Because we’re often so isolated, that’s why I think professional associations and professional development is vital for us. You sound like from that point of view, you’re in a lovely work situation where you get to talk to those people, like fairly regularly, whereas people that are I’m at this school for one day and that’s the day the music teacher’s not there at the same time. So we just leave each other notes, on circuits and working by yourself. The message is, I think, if you’re working by yourself you’ve got to form your own networks.

Forming Networks

David Law 

Well, look what we’re doing right now. We’re chatting on Zoom. So if you are feeling really isolated, we actually are really easily connectable these days, if you’re looking for some PD, there’s nothing stopping you from setting up a computer in your band room or in your classroom, recording a session and sending it to someone you trust for some feedback and building relationships that way. I think asking for help is a really great way to start conversations about sharing and feedbacks just so important, isn’t it?

So like, let’s use technology and that’s when technology is at its best, isn’t it? Like creating community, so let’s use it for good. Everyone can do more of that. Here is a recording of the things that I did in class today with my Year Three’s. What can we do in our string program to consolidate the things that I’ve just taught?

So if you have a moment can you have a look at this section of the video that I’ve made? So when you come in on Thursday to take strings, is there any way you can consolidate what I’ve been doing in that particular moment? Just record it, share it and grow together. Even if you don’t cross paths every day, we can still use technology to build our relationships and acquire knowledge. Again, who are the beneficiaries? Who benefits? The students benefit.

Debbie O’Shea 

That’s right, you benefit and the students benefit. Win, win.

David Law 

Absolutely.

Debbie O’Shea 

I love it. We keep talking about this beginner band program. Can you tell us a little more about it?

The Beginner Band Program

David Law 

Yeah, I can. So I mean, it all comes down to this philosophy that music is for everyone. So we’re in a really unique situation here where many years ago we wanted to offer in our private school that we work at, the same kind of experience that a student gets in a state school by being part of the band program. So we said, look, we’re going to make it available to everybody. We’ll make a balanced ensemble, so we’ll have enough instruments to facilitate an ensemble and we had 100% of the students opting in. So for maybe eight or nine years, we have the entire cohort. We’ve now made that part of the curriculum in Year Five. So band is curriculum, so there’s your overlap, like we work together with the classroom teachers and the instrumental teachers are the music program in Year Five.

Debbie O’Shea 

Okay, how do you do that? Physically how do you do that?

David Law 

Do you mean, how do we fit everybody in one room? Or do you mean, how do we deliver content?

Debbie O’Shea 

Yes, both of those things and how does it fit into the timetable?

David Law 

Well, the way that we got it across the line in the first place is by saying, If you give us everyone in Year Five at the same time they won’t be coming out of their classes for lessons during the week, right? So you give us everyone at once and all of the students who play band won’t be coming and going from class like all the strings and the piano kids do, which it’s inevitable, that’s what happens. So that’s what they do. So we take everyone, so thankfully we’re in a small school, so we have three Year Five classes. We take everybody all at once and then we use the entire department to deliver that, to present a united front and deliver that subject.

So there’s me, there’s 1, 2 ,3 classroom music teachers and because it’s a P-12 school, using all of the teachers that we have available, if we didn’t have the right teaching staff, we’d bring in another person to deliver whatever. But actually, we have enough people here that all of the specialists on the instruments are also the classroom teachers. So one of our classroom teachers is a flutist. We have another classroom teacher who was a clarinet player. We have another person who can play sax.

We have another person delivering percussion. I do brass and strings, so like it all works together. So we have all of these options where for the first couple of weeks, we just separate out into small groups, just for two weeks and we learn how to safely, I’ve underlined that and put it in bold, how to safely put our instruments together and how to safely make a sound on our instruments and then in week three, once we can play a note or two notes, we’re all together, and it’s a band and we start making music all together right from the beginning. So everybody’s in the room at once. All of their friends are in the same room as them, whether they’re playing the same instruments or not, it doesn’t matter, but everyone is making sounds at the same time and we’re learning about music.

So right from the beginning, we’re talking about dynamics, we’re talking about breathing, we’re talking about phrasing, we’re talking about colour, we’re talking about following reading notes on the page. So we’re starting with semibreves of course and we’re talking about articulation and oh my goodness. So that’s week three and four and we’re all together. So then we have to sort of like unpack that a little bit and we go back to our other groups.

David Law 

So now everyones played in band. Everyone knows what it is. Of course, we’re having a great time. But then we can split up into smaller groups and work on instrumental techniques too. So we use our homogenous band book. So we use Essential Elements, but we also made classroom booklet that goes alongside essential elements, that has homework activities, that consolidates theoretic music theory skills. There’s putting notation, like recognising the solfa and the letter name.

So we do so much singing Debbie, like so much singing. Everyone’s singing in B flat do, so that when I sing a note, when I sing do, everyone can play a note. I don’t have to say, Okay, I’m going to sing do now you play B flat and you play G and you play F and you play E flat. Like we’re not doing any of that stuff, so I just sing do. But then we’re also talking about letter names in small groups, so that students have an understanding that music will look like this. We sing do and the letter name is whatever, so they understand that it’s like three languages at once.

There’s the notation, the solfege and the letter names. So we do that and then we also do some composing. So we break down even into other groups, where we actually write our own pieces using the notes that we know. So once we get to being able to play five notes, we break into what we call our composer groups. So all the bass clef students go together; all of the students reading B flat instruments go together, all the students reading C instruments go together. And we sort of like break up into small groups, and then we start writing our own melodies using the notes and the rhythms that we’ve learned in class.

We sing them in solfa, we play them on our instruments. When we do assessment, some of the assessment is playing. So at the end of every semester, the students record a video of them playing some of the pieces that we’ve been doing in class. But during the semester, we also do a little bit of assessment that might be singing, so showing that you know the letter names and the hand signs and you know your solfa. Let me tell you Debbie, it is so good. It is so good. We have collaborated and we have built something really amazing and because it’s fun and because it’s good, well, actually it goes the other way, because it’s good, it is fun.

And so we have really great retention and we’re looking at 80% of students continuing into Year Six where it’s not compulsory anymore, because the program’s really rich and they just want to keep playing their instruments. That is how we’ve ended up in a situation where so many of our students play more than one instrument, so when they get to band, lots of our students here are already string players, so they have already had a chance to play violin, viola, cello, double bass. When they hit band and enjoy it, they continue playing their string instrument and their band instrument, because they see that it’s all just one thing. You’re just a musician. You just happen to have this instrument on this day and you have this instrument on another day and you sing in the choir on another day.

So we have this massive collection of senior school students who play a string instrument, play a band instrument, sing in the choir, are interested in jazz, might have lessons on one of their instruments or maybe two, but we’re just building musicians. We’re not building students who are band kids. We’re not building flute players. We’re not building violists, we’re building musicians. That is something that I’m super duper proud of and I think that one of the reasons why we’ve been able to do that is because of the integration between instrumental music and classroom music in that Year Five space. How was that? Did I do?

Debbie O’Shea 

That was amazing. I want one.

David Law 

It’s really great Debbie, it’s so terrific. And it’s so wonderful seeing the instrumental students engaging in classroom music through the lens of band.

Debbie O’Shea 

Yes, or the other way around.

David Law 

Or the other way around, depending on which path you’re travelling on. So the classroom teachers love that they’re engaging in classroom music through the lens of band and we love that they’re engaging in band through the lens of classroom music, because it makes everyone’s experience richer. If it was possible to do that from 5 to 12, I mean, we would, but we only have that opportunity once in Year Five to get that right. I think we’ve got it right so it works really well for us.

I think one of the things that other schools maybe don’t do so well is that they do immersion in Year Four or Five or whatever, but continue it on into Six, or continue it on longer than it needs to. And I think that some students become a little bit resentful if they’re made to do something. It’s not for everybody. Some families just don’t. They are happy to do classroom music, but they don’t want to be part of all of those extra things that come with being an instrumentalist.

So I think sometimes the tail gets too long and the longer you do something, obviously, we’ve got some students who get way out in front. We’ve got other students who need a little bit of extra support at the back. I think that doing immersion programs in place of classroom music is not always a great idea, actually. So we do this little bubble of band in Year Five, but then students go back into the classroom program for Year Six and I think that that’s really important.

Debbie O’Shea 

I think from your description, one of the things that your immersion program has is great input by the classroom teacher as well.

Input

David Law 

Lots of input.

Debbie O’Shea 

So that it’s really focusing on the aural and the general musicianship, which I think is the focus of a good classroom program. I actually think it comes down to one word really is that it’s musicianship and it’s developing musicians. It’s not developing that whole thing of, oh, and how are they going in flute?

David Law 

We’re not building any instrumentalists, we’re building musicians.

Debbie O’Shea 

We’re working on page 20 now, so we’re up to exercise seven. Like, that’s The Development Of The Musician exercise Seven. No, it’s not, no.

David Law 

You might be really interested to know too Debbie that compared to other beginner programs, we actually move quite slowly through the book. Because instead of just rushing through and learning all the songs, I’m actually a lot more interested in tone. I’m actually a lot more interested in stopping on that page and writing dynamics on the page. We have a silly little activity we did just last week, is that we rolled these dice. So we went through, it was the end of the term. So it’s a nice last lesson for the term. We rolled these dice. One of the dice has tempos on it, so it has adagio, moderato, presto, the other dice has things like dynamics or staccato or whatever. So we chose songs from the book and then we rolled the dice together, and then we played those songs that way.

Debbie O’Shea 

That is such a classroom music thing to do. Go you.

David Law 

Of course it is. But the outcome is that students are moving past just the notes and the fingerings on their instruments and are actually engaging in music in a meaningful way and in a long term way. So those things will stay part of their music path. That will stay with them while they travel their music path, whereas if you are just rushing through an instrumental book and learning the songs by recognising the fingerings and things, I mean, you’re not going to be able to remember any of that after the school holidays in December and then you end up having to start all over again. So I think taking your time and building a really strong musical foundation when you’re doing an immersion program, I think is the key to success. Outside of the main key, which obviously is collaborating with the classroom program.

Debbie O’Shea 

I could not agree more.

David Law 

I’m so passionate about it Debbie, I’m so passionate about getting it right from the start.

Debbie O’Shea 

Your school must be very supportive too, because by the sound of it, that does take some resourcing, like, that’s some teacher time there and teacher time is expensive. However, I imagine your Year Five teachers would be very grateful to have that time offline to work collaboratively, the classroom teachers.

Pieces of The Puzzle

David Law 

Absolutely, I mean, it all fits into the puzzle, because everyone believes it is good. So we’re at that point now where it’s well established and well recognised. So it’s something that the school values and it’s certainly something that the parents and the community value. It’s something students look forward to in Year Four, so they’ll see me in the building and they’ll be like, I know you’re going to be teaching us next year. That’s lovely, isn’t it? Yeah, and it does take some resourcing, but we’re in a position here where we have enough teachers for that to be able to work. Instead of Year Five being delivered three times by one teacher, it’s being delivered by three teachers once each. But it just all happens at the same time.

Debbie O’Shea 

It sounds fairly perfect to me.

David Law 

Yeah, and it’s good and because it’s good, it’s fun. I say to the students all the time, I mean and this is, I suppose, something we can talk about later. But students, young people want to be part of something. I think there’s a bit of a misconception that young people want to be part of something fun, but actually, young people want to be part of something good and when it’s good, it’s fun. When it’s good, they’re proud of it.

So when it’s good, it turns into something that is very fun and that is a really important thing to remember when it comes to retention, that students will dip into a fun activity, but it’s not really a long term thing. But if you make it really good and you’re delivering something that you care about and you’re delivering it in an intelligent way, then students will stick around. So I always say, especially in the senior school, I’m always saying to the students’ good equals fun, so let’s work on this and then you’ll see what I mean and then inevitably, they understand.

Debbie O’Shea 

It is so true. Children, I know they are children. Yes, they’re children. A lot of brain development to happen, but they’re actually not silly. They know when they’re learning and they get great pleasure from actually learning and developing and achieving. Yes, of course, it’s fun to just do some superficial fun thing. And in fact, Anita Collins, just at the ASME State Conference recently when I used the word it’s fun and she said just be careful on the use of fun, because you don’t want that superficial. Yes, just entertainment, not education. Kids want to learn. They know when they’re learning, they know when they’re achieving and they want us to challenge them intellectually and to help them grow not to be really superficial. So I think we need to give them credit for that.

David Law 

Well young people know why they’re at school and they’re there to learn. You said entertainment and then you said education and I think there’s that great word edutainment. That if you can reach that from time to time, I mean then you’re really mastering your craft. My experience is that that students really value something that is good quality and not just music, but anything when they come to school, even anything in their own private lives as well, if it’s good they stick around because they see the value in that and I think that’s really important.

So I think sometimes we need to have a look at ourselves as well and think, am I delivering something that is really good? Am I delivering that in an intelligent way that is appealing so that students realise that they’re learning something? But then also consolidating that with that element of playfulness too and humour, so that it is delivered in a way that is accessible and not dry but actually ultimately satisfying, because it’s quality. I don’t think that’s as articulate as I wanted it to be.

Debbie O’Shea 

No, no, I thought it was very articulate. But can I just? You said sometimes at the beginning, I actually think that is what a good educator does all the time.

David Law 

All the time. You’re right. Well that’s what we’re aspiring to anyway.

Debbie O’Shea 

Yes, that self reflection. I think it becomes automatic once you’ve been in the game for a while and you want to grow and improve. It’s automatic. You’ve just delivered a Year Six lesson and in the back of your head, you’re going, hmm, I could have done this, this and this better. Then you get the next Year Six and you tweak it. So I think that to me is the hallmark of a good educator, is constant self reflection.

David Law 

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I agree. I’m thinking about what I’m doing all the time. I think everyone who cares about their work thinks about it. And I want to do a better job all the time, constantly, even when I have a great rehearsal or deliver a great lesson, I’m still thinking, Oh, look, I could do this little bit. I could do that. Change that just a tiny bit for next time, lots of notes. Like leaving lots of notes for myself for next time. So helpful, isn’t it? I don’t know. I just want to grow all the time. I also like talking about my rehearsals and I like talking about my classes with others to see if anyone else has ideas about how I could have done something differently.

Or things that went well, so that I shouldn’t talk about it being negative, but sometimes things go really well and you’d want to redo that. You want to capture that magic and then deliver that a second time or a third time, or whatever. So it’s not just about things you can do better. It’s also about acknowledging some of the things that you do okay, that you do well and you want to sort of continue to do those things. So, yeah, I think that reflection things super important, isn’t it Debbie?

Debbie O’Shea 

So, so important David. But I also think, or maybe I’m just speaking about myself, sometimes we don’t take enough time to celebrate the little things and to go, okay, because as soon as you feel good, I did that and it generally worked well. Now onto the next thing and what can I improve? And instead of just going, okay, stop, just take a moment to go, that was pretty good.

David Law 

Absolutely and sometimes lessons and rehearsals can be really tricky and they don’t start well, sometimes the things that have happened during the day or things that have happened at home, the students come to rehearsal or class in a certain mindset and then if you’re able to turn that around so that everybody has had a positive experience, then I think that is absolutely worth celebrating.

Something I was going to say later in the podcast Debbie, is that one of my goals is to make sure that everyone feels good about themselves when the rehearsal or the class is finished, so that no matter what happens at the very end of rehearsal I want every single person to leave feeling good about themselves and being mindful of that and maybe tying into what you’ve just said, maybe we need to take a moment to feel good about ourselves as well, which is hard to do sometimes.

Debbie O’Shea 

I find that hard to do, that is amazing.

Sign-Off

Thank you for joining me for this podcast. Don’t forget, you’ll find the show notes and transcript and all sorts of information on crescendo.com.au. If you’ve enjoyed the podcast or found it valuable, you might like to rate it on your podcast player and leave a review. I’d really appreciate it if you did. All I can be as the best version of me. All you can do is be the best you. Until next time, bye.

Just for Laughs

As we know, laughter relieves stress, don’t lose sight of the funny side of life.
Don’t lose sight of the funny side of life. Why are pirates so mean? Because they arrrrre.

Links Mentioned in the Episode:

📜 Crescendo Music Education Podcast | Episode 126

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