Introduction

Hello, Debbie O’Shea here at the Crescendo Music Education Podcast. In this episode, I’m going to speak with Claire Preston. You’re going to hear some fabulous ideas from Claire. She’s a conductor, music teacher, musician extraordinaire, you will just like listening to her story for a start, but you will also learn a lot from her nuggets of fabulous. I had a very good time chatting with Claire. As you could probably tell while you listen to this episode, I think you’ll enjoy Episode 96.

Speaking of 96, that was a show that was on TV here in Australia when I was young – Number 96. It was a show I wasn’t allowed to watch as a young person. So here’s Episode Number 96.

This podcast is being recorded on the lands of the Turrbal people. I acknowledge them as the traditional owners of the land and pay my respects to elder’s past, present and emerging. They were the first music makers on this land.

About ‘Read the Episode’: Sometimes, we would rather skim visually than listen to a podcast! That’s a great way to learn too!
The transcript of episode 096 of The Crescendo Music Education Podcast is below.

Music Education with Conductor and Teacher Claire Preston

Debbie O’Shea
I’d like to welcome to the Crescendo Music Education Podcast Claire Preston. Welcome, Claire.

Claire Preston
Thank you for inviting me. I feel very humbled and very honoured.

Debbie O’Shea
Yay we’re gonna have such a good time. Okay. I’m going to start by reading your bio. Are you ready? You can listen to yourself. Alright. I have a feeling we’re going to have a bit of a giggle here.

Claire Preston’s Bio

Debbie O’Shea
All right, Claire Preston has worked extensively in Australia and North America, specialising in developing young singers. She has been Assistant Conductor of the Toronto Children’s Chorus and Canadian Children’s Opera Chorus. Accompanist for Canada’s foremost professional choir the Elmer Iseler Singers and was co founder of the award winning Exaudi Youth Choir. And those of you who tuned into my last two podcasts heard about them when I chatted with Mark O’Leary.

Claire returned to Australia as Head of Choral Studies at the Victorian College of the Arts Secondary School, where she commissioned and recorded Australian music and collaborated regularly with the VCA orchestra. Claire maintains an active career as a choral conductor, and is in demand as an adjudicator for choral festivals and eisteddfods including New Zealand Choral Federation, the Big Sing, Festival of Voices, Australian Honours Ensemble Program and Voices of Birralee. She has been a regular guest conductor at Gondwana National Choral School, and is currently Head of Choral and Vocal Studies at Hillcrest Christian College.

In 2020 Claire was awarded a scholarship at the National Excellence in School Leadership Institute and in 2021 Claire received the Leadership Award from the Australian Council for Educational Leaders. Wow. Okay, so listening to that brief bio what would you like to add to that?

Claire Preston
I’ve been really blessed to work with amazing people really and actually it’s your mentors that are the treasures and I’ve always sought out mentors. I remember the first school I taught at the very, very first competition I put the choir into an eisteddfod and I remember hearing this amazing choir, it was St Margarets Berwick. I’m from Melbourne. I was just blown away.

And then I did my research and found out that the conductor was Jean Heriot and I’d never heard of Kodály up til then and I was just like, What is this magic? I’ve got to get some. So that was the start of my Kodály journey and I did all of my level 1,2,3 training back in Victoria in the early 90s and then pursued my secondary training. I flew up to Queensland and I was living in Victoria when the secondary training started. And then I also sought out Ian Harrison, who was another forefather of Kodály.

Debbie O’Shea
Yes amazing man.

Claire Preston
He was very kind and all my mentors have been kind they’ve all just said, Absolutely come and watch a rehearsal, come and spend a day at school with me. I mean I was a new teacher, I was a Head of Department, I wanted to know how to organise curriculum and so I did. I went and watched Ian Harrison, he was the Head of Department at St. Michael’s and all of the mentors have been so generous. Here Claire, this is what I’ve taught year 7 to 12, this is the repertoire.

And I’ve just continued, I’m a lifelong learner and when I’m adjudicating I’m hearing great rep. At the beginning of this year, I went to Gondwana National Choral School. I wasn’t conducting this year, which I thought was great because then I got to go and enjoy the concerts without all the work. But I just always want to be listening at concerts and enjoying my colleagues work and hearing new repertoire.

And then I went to Birralee, they had a PD on with David Squire and they also had a reading day and so I’m just going to everything I can get my hands on all the time. And I think that’s the case for all of us really, as long as we’re teaching we just are always learning.

Debbie O’Shea
Yes, I think that’s one of the major characteristics of an amazing educator is that you just never stop learning.

Claire Preston
Yeah and always reflecting on. Okay, how did that rehearsal go? Or how did that lesson go? What worked? What didn’t work? How would I change it? And yeah, that reflective practice is really important. Yeah.

Debbie O’Shea
I think that’s great. That’s amazing. You started off in Melbourne, so when did you end up in Canada?

Claire Preston’s Work in Canada

Claire Preston
I was about 15 years into my teaching career and I felt like I was sort of using all the knowledge and the skills that I had at the time, but I knew there was more out there to learn. And I started reading this amazing book, which I’m going to recommend to everybody called Lifeline for Children’s Choir Directors by Jean Ashworth Bartle and I started doing everything she said, and my choir started winning and I was like, wow, this is really cool, you know?

And then I really wanted to study with her and she said, Well, Claire, you can’t study with me. You can’t do a degree, you can go to the University of Toronto and study with Doreen Rao. I said, No, no, it’s not about the piece of paper. It’s not about the course. It’s about the learning, and you’re the person I want to learn from.

Anyway long story short, I played for her, I did an audition. I watched her rehearsal. She got to know me and and then I was hired as the accompanist for the Almarisa Singers and then Jean hired me as her Assistant Conductor. And I’m really proud to say that the Toronto Children’s Chorus still have that role, that Assistant Conductor role that I started. So I’m a bit chuffed about that, it’s great.

Working with Jean Ashworth Bartle

Claire Preston
Anyway, so then I was at all of her rehearsals and just absorbing and watching and learning. And then she wrote this fantastic book Sound Advice and I kind of helped her write it, because she put into that book everything that she does in rehearsals and she had asked me to take notes during her rehearsals, which I did. Then I handed those over, and we discussed them. And yeah, it was interesting, because whenever we debriefed she would say Oh I didn’t realise I did that.

So much of what she was doing was just second nature and it wasn’t until she started unpacking it with me observing going Oh, that was really effective, Oh I really liked the way you did that, Oh I really liked that order worked. I really liked the language you used to get that. It was interesting, she was such an expert teacher. And she came from very humble beginnings, she came from just a local government Primary School. And that’s actually how her choral program began, the symphony asked her to prepare some children to sing the chorus of Coming to Birana and she did that with her primary school choir.

The Beauty of Teaching Children’s Choirs

Claire Preston
So I think the great thing about teaching, working with children’s voices is that obviously, every child has one, it doesn’t cost anything, it’s the cheapest music program you can have. And really, you just need a skilled teacher with good repertoire, which again, is not that expensive compared to a band program or any other program for that matter. I think the great thing about children’s voices is that they are capable of such artistry, they are capable of really expressive singing and communicating great meaning.

And so we can access their inner musician through their voice. I think the voice is the most primal instrument and because it’s part of us, and it’s part of our soul, and I think that’s the thrill that it gives to the singers, they can just feel all those vibrations and that there’s something very unique about singing in a choir that you can’t get with an orchestra.

Debbie O’Shea
You can’t get it any other way. And I think with children, like you said, tapping into that expressiveness they generally don’t have the barriers that adults may put between their voice, their soul and their self expression. Children are just ready to give.

Claire Preston
That is so true. Sometimes I hear teachers say Oh this is going to be difficult and I say never say that the child doesn’t know what’s difficult and what’s not. The child is just willing to do anything. If they trust you and you fill them with confidence. They’re willing to go on any journey if you’re passionate about the journey. And really the children are only limited by the teacher. So when I hear people say, Oh, no, we’re about to do this bit it’s really tricky. I think don’t say that. They don’t know that it’s tricky, it’s your job to make it accessible, make it achievable.

Debbie O’Shea
That’s right and if it’s really not achievable, then you as the conductor teacher shouldn’t have it in front of them.

Claire Preston
Right and that’s the other thing I’ve seen a lot when I’ve been adjudicating, teachers who are trying to attempt repertoire that is too difficult. Now, whether that’s because they’ve just fallen in love with the repertoire, whether it’s because they think that across this period of learning, that the children will get there, whether it’s because they just believe wholeheartedly that the children are capable but they haven’t prepared them with those skills.

But my encouragement to people would be it’s better to choose repertoire that is within their, I mean you don’t want them to be bored obviously you want them to be engaged. But I’d encourage people to go deeper with the repertoire. Choose something that’s really achievable, where you can develop loads of tone and loads of expression and just get right into the detail of the music. A lot of people say to me I have taught the notes and the rhythms, what do I do now? And that’s actually where the music is. It’s beyond the notes.

Debbie O’Shea
That’s actually where you start really?

Claire Preston
Exactly, exactly. Yeah.

Debbie O’Shea
And that’s the magic. That’s the difference between the choirs you see that just, you go. Yeah, they’ve got that. I agree.

Claire Preston
Yeah, yeah.

For What Are You Most Grateful?

Debbie O’Shea
Ok we got sidetracked already, which is fabulous. I love it. I love it. Okay, gratitude. I like to ask all my guests about gratitude, go for it. For what are you most grateful?

Claire Preston
Well I am grateful that my grandmother taught me and so I feel that every day I sing for her. I had a funny high school teacher, I was accompanying all the choirs, and she said, Oh, you’re a great pianist. But please don’t sing you have a horrible voice. And I think, wow, if she only knew what I was doing now. So I’m very grateful to my Grandma, my grandparents family was one of those, they sang around the piano after dinner every night and it was just part of family life. I’m grateful that my passion became my career. And I’ve always loved working with children.

And music is what I live for. So I get to, you know when you’re doing your passion it doesn’t feel like work every day. So that’s what it’s like for me. But I’m incredibly grateful to all my mentors. So the fact that I was able to go to Toronto and that I again, this sort of second chapter of my journey, I was observing and working with people that were incredibly expert in their field. And I just learnt so much. I was in rehearsals that had the potential, they were really high stakes, and they had the potential to be incredibly stressful.

But these master conductors never lost their cool, it was always about the music. It was never about the conductor. And I really learned to love on my singers and really your singers, your children they’re giving you their voice, and they’re sharing their gifts and their talents and their love of singing and their love of music. Really, that’s the relationship, that’s the trust. And I always say I’m so grateful that I’ve got those children in front of me and I can share my love of singing with their love of singing. It’s a lifelong thing that we’re we’re instilling. We’re planting seeds. So yeah, I do. I feel really grateful that I get to do my my passion every day. Yeah.

Debbie O’Shea
They are very lucky to have you I would say.

Claire Preston
Thank you. I’m very grateful for all the mentors in my life. I’ve had really generous mentors in my life, and I still do. Part of why we moved from the south, from Melbourne up to Queensland is because the choral community is so vibrant, and it’s so generous. And people like Julie Christiansen who has just always mentored people and always created opportunities for people and always shared, always shared.

And so I just find that any colleague I reach out to here in Queensland is always willing to share repertoire or ideas and I just think that’s a real credit to the choral community and the Kodály community. I would put Kodály teachers in exactly the same category, all so generous and so supportive. And I think when you’re talking about a long career, that’s really what helps sustain everybody. We’re all on a different trajectory and different path in our journey, but we’re all learning and that whole generosity of spirit is something that I brag about, about Queensland whenever I’m working interstate.

Debbie O’Shea
I agree. I agree wholeheartedly. Like you were talking about your grandmother and learning from her and singing around the piano. Did she teach you to play piano as well?

Claire Preston
Yeah, she did. She was my piano teacher and she really taught me how to sight read. And she was always accompanying dancers or ballet dancers and singers and instrumental students. So I was always with her, always following her around and I think I just grew up with that love of accompaniment and that love of being an associate artist and working with people and making music. I never wanted to be a soloist, it’s just too lonely.

Moving from Instrumental Music to Vocal Music

Debbie O’Shea
So did you start out your career as such, your music career as an accompanist and then moved to voice?

Claire Preston
I did, that’s right. I studied voice at university and viola – I was the second study violist at high school so I developed that love of chamber music and orchestral playing and then when I started working professionally as an accompanist after I left school, I was working with Australian Pops Orchestra. And they had a quite a large season of concerts throughout the year which became a part of my life for a good sort of 12-15 years.

And every concert was a visiting conductor and some from Britain, some from Vienna and they all had their different approaches. I was reading full orchestral scores and chord charts and the variety of repertoire was fantastic. And I just got to work with so many great conductors and I loved it. I felt like I was being their orchestra in rehearsals. And I loved that whole, just being able to read what they were communicating and seeing how they got the best out of each person. The way they each worked was different and the way they got the best out of us, the choir and the orchestra.

So I’ve come from that sort of orchestral background. And then I’ve made some recordings and done some mietta song recitals and art song and lieder is also my other passion. And so I love working with singers. Yeah.

Debbie O’Shea
Oh I’m learning lots about you.

Claire Preston
I used to do a lot of vocal coaching at the Melbourne Conservatorium, and then I did some more vocal coaching at the University of Toronto, and yeah, I’ve just always loved working with singers. Yep.

Debbie O’Shea
So you showed that high school music teacher, didn’t you?

Addressing Children About Their Voice

Claire Preston
Yeah, exactly, exactly. Yeah, I think about her whenever I’m auditioning children, because I actually don’t enjoy the process of auditioning children, because my very core is that singing is for everybody. But I always make sure in that process to always say to a child, even if they’re not matching pitch, we talk about, do you think you’re singing the same notes as Miss P or the same notes as you can hear on the piano? Do you think your notes are higher or lower, but I always say you have such a beautiful voice.

It’s so important. It’s so important and I’ve spoken to so many adults who say the moment that was said to them, they couldn’t sing in tune, that was it they never sang again, and I just said you can’t do that to people. As I often say to a child, thank you, your voice is beautiful and I love that you love singing and that’s so important. And when you’re in choir, keep listening, and keep just checking if your notes are the same as everybody’s around you and just sort of give them an awareness of that. But I never make it personal.

Debbie O’Shea
Yeah, you can cause lifelong damage. There’s a little story I tell when I did Do-Re-Mei classes, these little kids and this little boy I had for a couple of years, and the parents sit in and they sing, join in and sing. And after a couple of years of teaching this little fellow the mother came up to me and she basically had a tear as she told me, so I have to be careful to not have a tear here. She said, I sang Happy Birthday to my son, I have never sung in front of my children. Because someone at school told her, she could not sing. So she was not even going to sing Happy Birthday to her children.

Claire Preston
So sad, it’s tragic.

Debbie O’Shea
And you have to be so careful. I’ve had an adult come up and tell me that I told her she couldn’t sing when she was at school. And I was like, it’s gotta be one of the cruelest things you could ever say to a music teacher. And I was doing a contract when I was between jobs. I’d just moved and I was doing a contract and I was told to audition the choir.

And I generally do not have at schools. I’m philosophically sort of opposed to audition calls in schools in my situation but I feel I’m filling in for someone else, I have to audition. And she didn’t get in. Now. I promise you. I have never, ever told a child she could not sing. But because she didn’t get into the choir that meant that I told her she couldn’t sing.

So I’d obviously not put the right words around it or taken enough time. So it’s obviously still got, I mean I’ve got to take some of the blame. But that’s just so damaging.

Claire Preston
Absolutely. Words matter and that is lifelong, as you said, and sometimes it’s exactly what you said, if the families aren’t singing, then the children aren’t singing at home and they don’t start using their voice and then they come to school and they’re suddenly expected to use their voice and it’s a brand new instrument and it’s such a fine muscle and for some it’s not that they can’t hear it. It’s that they can’t for some at that point in time, they’re not reproducing it or for others, it’s just that that fine muscle control that hasn’t quite developed. So it comes in time. But at that moment in time when you’re when the child is singing for you for any matter of reasons, that may not be 100%. So yeah, I agree very important. Those words. Yeah, I can’t remember how we got onto that.

Debbie O’Shea
No. Me either.

Claire Preston
No. It does remind me though, little segue, one of those nuggets you were talking about a little while ago.

Debbie O’Shea
We’re about to get to nuggets. So give us some nuggets.

Claire Preston’s Nuggets of Fabulous

Using Your Voice Is Important!

Claire Preston
I think it’s really important for teachers to model and use their voice. I’ve seen some rehearsals where the conductor will say, if they’re introducing a new song, they’ll say to the pianos, can you please play the melody? Yes, there’s a place for that but the advantage to you singing the phrase, as opposed to the accompanist or the pianist playing the phrase is that they hear all of the tonal nuance, they hear the shape of the phrase, they hear the vowel shape that you want, they hear the importance of the text, they just absorb so much more of the music than they do if they just hear the pianos play, if you’re fortunate enough to have an accompanist.

So I would encourage people and it also gets back to that point we’re talking about before about the conductor feeling confident enough with their voice. And they might also only have a particular range that they feel comfortable in. And sometimes if you’re an adult in your range you prefer to be in the middle, middle, low part of your voice.

Children Must Hear Modeling

Claire Preston
When we’re working with young children, they actually need to be up higher, their tempature or their natural range for their age, because their vocal folds are so much narrower, is going to be higher. So it’s so important that they’re hearing that modeling, and you just need to feel confident enough with your voice that it’s a nice, clean, clear model. It doesn’t need to be operatic, it doesn’t need to be fancy. It just needs to be nice and clean and in tune.

But yeah, I would encourage people when they’re introducing a song, and when they’re teaching the reading and the phrases, the children are going to absorb everything from your modeling. It’s better that it’s unaccompanied. It’s better that, the piano is so percussive anyway, but it’s better for them to develop their tuning if they’re singing unaccompanied like that. And then the piano is just a gentle, soft sort of support.

Debbie O’Shea
Yeah, yes. None of that note bashing.

Experiment with Other Training Styles – Dalcroze

Claire Preston
Exactly, exactly. And the other thing I’ve been doing a lot more lately in my career than I ever did at the beginning was I’ve always wanted to do Dalcroze training. I’ve done little workshops here and there, but I just am frustrated and I wish I’d done full Dalcroze training but I just love the children to be shaping the phrases as I’m teaching it to them and it’s this size, or it’s this size. I’m just adding movements all the time to the phrases, and I just find that I get a freer sound from them, they automatically can sing the length of the note, I don’t have to talk to them about a whole note or whatever, they just do it.

I get the direction of the phrase that I want, I get the the shape, the nuances with the vowel, I just get so much more by just having their bodies moving. You know, they’re freer, their bodies are freer. I’m not talking about actions, I’m not talking about choralography. I’m not talking about how do we help them learn and memorise the words, Oh we attach actions. That’s not what I’m talking about. I’m talking shaping the phrase whether it’s rainbows or whether it’s a ribbon or whether it’s a paintbrush, or whether it’s I don’t even name it, they just do it. They just copy me.

And sometimes they conduct with me and not even the beat I just have the moving and showing restiveness while they’re singing, and I never used to do it when I first started teaching, and I just, I just love it and they stay engaged.

Debbie O’Shea
Yeah, it does sound very much like Dalcroze people would be very happy to hear you say that. I’m thinking of Paula Melville-Clark.

Claire Preston
Yes, well, I did some training with her. I sought her out. And that’s exactly what she was doing.

Debbie O’Shea
Yes. She’s amazing.

Claire Preston
She’s brilliant. She was showing the length of the notes and I just went Oh I can do that in my rehearsals. That’s awesome. And it cuts down on what you have to talk about or teach.

Debbie O’Shea
And even as simple as showing the phrase and where you need to breathe.

Trust the Process for Great Performances

Claire Preston
Exactly. So that’s a nugget. What other nuggets do I have here? Oh, I’ve always said that something I believe is that when the process is great, the performance is going to take care of itself. It’s going to be excellent. I think there are some people out there that think, Oh, it’s all about the performance. There’ll be right on the night or we’ll just we’ll have some last minute, you know, we’ll get really intense towards the end. No, no, no. Trust the process, I guess is what I’m saying.

Chunking Material and Mixing Things Up

Claire Preston
And chunking I think it’s really important. I don’t try and teach a whole song in a rehearsal. I like to have several songs being taught in the rehearsal, and depending on the length rehearsal of course, but I like having different songs in different parts of the learning process so that the children aren’t in the same stage with every piece in the rehearsal. Sometimes they’re singing something they know really, really well, and we’re polishing, we’re just adding little details. We’re learning something brand new so we’re using a different part of our brain. Sometimes we’ve been learning a piece and we’re sort of in the middle of a process, and we’re learning a new section of it or something.

So I like mixing it up like that. It also impacts the way I choose repertoire, so that in the rehearsal there’s variety, there’s a variety of keys, tempe, language, style, so that they’re not singing a whole rehearsal of slow pieces, or a whole rehearsal of fast pieces, it’s really important to mix it up. And that also creates some engagement and pace in your rehearsal.

So this whole idea of chunking, you know, okay, today, I’m just going to teach this section, but I’m going to get as deep into it as I can. And really, it’s that pacing, I always have a clock at the on the back wall behind the children. And then that helps me pace and they don’t notice me looking at it. So yeah, I think they say that the maximum amount of time they can concentrate is about 12 minutes on one thing, but I tend to work in about sort of eight minute blocks. I wouldn’t stay on any one idea or one piece for longer than eight minutes. Oh, we were talking about repertoire before, I’m collecting repertoire all the time, all the time, mainly because I’m going to concerts and PD and listening.

Have a Sound Ideal in Your Head at the Beginning

Claire Preston
And I think that’s also the other thing that’s important is to have a sound ideal in your head, before you stand up in front of your children, have an idea of what you want the piece to sound like or parts of the piece to sound like, all the different vocal colours you want in that piece. So that right at the beginning, you teach that? I think that’s the other thing.

Early in my career, I thought, oh, right, I teach the notes, I make sure I get the rhythms right, then I add the dynamics. Then I add this. I don’t teach like that anymore and I have Paul Holley to thank for that. Because when I first co-conducted Gondwana with him, I saw him doing that. He was all big picture and it was all just this kind of almost a bit like a big paintbrush. And I thought wow, he’s not stopping, he’s not fixing stuff. He’s just letting stuff go.

And then every rehearsal, he would just start to refine and refine and refine. And I thought that’s master teaching because the children, the singers stay engaged, because they’ve got the picture of the whole all the time, they stay engaged, and they stay connected to what you’re doing, as you’re refining it. Now when I teach, especially young children, right from the start, when I’m teaching the notes, I’m still teaching the way I want them to sing that note or that phrase or the colour I want. I go straight for it, you know, straight for the jugular.

Debbie O’Shea
It’s like you’re connecting with the heart and soul and musicianship of the experience and the music, rather than go through the motions until you can make music. Make music from the beginning.

Claire Preston
That’s it. That’s exactly it. Rehearsal, one, make music.

Debbie O’Shea
I love it.

Claire Preston
That’s it. And it might only be four phrases, but hey, they’ve made music.

Debbie O’Shea
Yes and the most beautiful four phrases rather than Well, we’ve just laboured through that and we’ve chanted the lyrics and we’ve heard the notes bashed out by the accompanist. So you’re quite right. It’s about connecting with that beautiful musical experience.

Claire Preston
That’s it and that’s what gets them excited. Because at the end of the day, children don’t learn unless they’re having fun, right? They think they’re just having fun but of course, as experienced teachers were teaching loads of skills, but they just think they’re having fun. And that’s the sweet spot you want to be in, isn’t it? You know, you want them to be excited about the repertoire, and then they just get carried away with it Oh, let’s try this and or, we can make this sound? You know, and then they just think the whole thing is big game. It’s great.

Debbie O’Shea
That is so wonderful. Those nuggets were so fabulous, that I’m actually going to finish this episode now and I want to have you back and in our next episode I want to talk about literacy and repertoire and get into some of that but hearing you talk about choirs is just inspirational and I’m sure my listeners loved it. And I’m looking forward to having you back.

Claire Preston
Thank you very much. I’m having fun too.

Debbie O’Shea
Talk to you soon. Bye.

Claire Preston
Thanks Deb, talk soon.

Sign-Off

I appreciate you and all of my colleagues, and hope this episode has been enjoyable and useful. Don’t forget, you’ll find the show notes on crescendo.com.au. I’d love a share, rate or review to help other music educators find this podcast. All I can be as the best version of me. All you can do is be the best you. Until next time, bye.

Just for Laughs

As we know laughter relieves stress don’t lose sight of the funny side of life.

Yesterday I accidentally swallowed some food colouring.

The doctor says I’m okay, but I feel like I’ve dyed a little inside.

Links Mentioned in the Episode:

📕 Books

• Lifeline for Children’s Choral Directors by Jean Bartle
• Sound Advice by Rick Notter

🎙️ Episode 94: Children’s Choral Music

🎙️ Episode 95: Making Positive Change in the Lives of Children

🎙️ Episodes with Paul Holley: A Passion for Choral Music (Part 1 and Part 2)

Where to find me:

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